Church of Christ Cult
by David J. Stewart
The Church of Christ is a false religion because it is wrong on the essential Biblical plan of salvation. In fact, many Church of Christ ministers have taught that the Church of Christ group is the true church of Christ, and no one else is. They even go as far as to claim that people who haven’t been baptized by a Church of Christ preacher will go to Hell. I distinctly recall a discussion I once had with a Church of Christ minister. He was arrogant, doctrinally corrupt, and unsaved. He believed that for a person to be saved, they had to have faith, repent of sins, and be baptized. Well, that’s two items too many! The only thing that God requires of men to be saved is faith alone in Christ.
“Repent” in the Bible, concerning salvation, simply means “a change of mind,” not the forsaking of one’s sins. The forsaking of one’s sins is a result of growing in grace, which often takes many years, as a believer grows in the Lord. One does not have to surrender anything to the Lord to be saved, BUT, simply believe upon the Lord (Acts 16:31). The only thing that a person needs to repent of to be saved is their unbelief. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15). A “gift” has no strings attached. Many preachers have developed the bad habit of requiring people to walk down to the front of the church to be saved; BUT, that is a work not required by God. Why does a person need to walk down to the front of the church? Can’t they be saved in their pew? Of course they can! If you’ll simply believe upon Jesus Christ to forgive your sins and save you, then you will go to Heaven when you die (John 14:6; Romans 10:13).
2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Carefully notice the phrase, “if any man be in Christ…” The change comes AFTER a person is saved, not as a requirement to be saved. Salvation is like picking an old soda can out of the garbage. You’ve saved it, but it hasn’t been recycled (converted) yet. Likewise, God pulls us out of the garbage when He saves us; BUT, now He must recycle us into His image. Christian growth in grace is not required to go to Heaven. I know this shocks many self-righteous religious people; but it’s Biblical (John 3:3; Romans 4:3-5; Ephesians 2:8,9). If you trust Jesus Christ as your Saviour, you’re going to Heaven, whether you grow in the Lord or not while on earth. There are some lousy Christians in this world, but that doesn’t mean they’re not saved. King David was an adulterer, murderer, and crook; BUT, he only lost the joy of salvation, not salvation itself. Such rebellious believers will give account at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
‘Baptismal Regeneration’ is Unbiblical
Church of Christ members teach that baptism is required for salvation, but it is not. They believe that obedience is a part of salvation. However, the only thing which we must obey to be saved is the Gospel, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” There is nothing in the Bible which requires a person to be baptized in order to be saved. On the contrary, we read in John 3:18, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” One who has trusted in Christ is saved, not condemned, whether he has been baptized or not. John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” There is no mention in this verse concerning baptism. Or what about John 10:9, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” Again, there is no mention of being baptized to be saved. There are hundreds of New Testament references which mention faith in Christ, without baptism being mentioned. Clearly, it is faith alone in Christ which saves a person, without baptism. The Church of Christ cult teaches damnable heresies by ADDING requirements which God didn’t add.
A careful study of the Scriptures with an honest heart makes it quite clear that works CANNOT save a person, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified IN HIS SIGHT: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” One cannot be justified in the sight of God by WORKS. When James spoke of being justified by works, he clearly stated…
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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James was speaking about being justified in the SIGHT OF MEN. 1st Samuel 16:7 tells us why, “…for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” Man cannot see our heart’s faith, so he looks at our works instead. However, God can see our heart, and it is all that He looks at. It is true that faith without works is dead; BUT, it is equally true that salvation (justification in the sight of God), comes by faith, without works. Romans 4:6 states, “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” Baptism is a work, that if added to faith in Christ, will send a man to Hell forever.
Faith + any work = NO faith at all
“Baptismal regeneration” is simply the heretical teaching that one must be baptised in order to be saved. It is a Satanic doctrine, which is responsible for sending billions to Hell. The Catholic Church REQUIRES it’s members to be baptized in order to go to Heaven. So does the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc. Jesus NEVER told anyone to get baptized to be saved. No one in the Old Testament was ever baptized; yet, we read that Abraham was justified by faith, without works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3-5).
Conclusion
Please leave the Church of Christ cult if you’ve been entangled in their doctrinal trap. They also deny the existence of a literal Heaven, the millennial reign of Christ, the Rapture, and many other fundamental Bible teachings. The Church of Christ is bad news!!! They focus on baptism so much that the plain Biblical plan of salvation is obscured; thus, they have churchianity without Christianity. So many people go through the rituals and ceremonies of religion, but they never become born-again believers. They join a church, get baptized, sing in a choir, tithe, go through the motions; BUT, they don’t know Jesus Christ as Saviour. They go through the outward form of religion, thinking that they are obeying God’s plan of salvation; BUT, they do not have the change of heart, because they are trusting the church and the form and the ceremony and holding out faithful and many other works of men, instead of depending solely on Jesus Christ. Psalm 118:8 declares, “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” I say to the Church of Christ the same thing which the Apostle Paul said to the church at Galatia, “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth”? (Galatians 3:1). O foolish Church of Christ, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? You have erred after another Gospel (Galatians 1:6). The Biblical Gospel does NOT require baptism to be saved, nor does it require a person to forsake their sins. Such actions are “works,” and then God would owe us salvation, which is unbiblical (Romans 4:4-5). Salvation is of God, paid for by the precious blood of Jesus. Our responsibility is to “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” (Acts 16:31)–and that’s it!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Church%20of%20Christ/cult.htm
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68 Comments
John Piper, I fully agree with you about being born again and it is not by being baptised in water. I do not have room to explain my new birth of the Holy Spirit but will say all my old desires changed into a love to follow Christ. Baptismal regeneration as taught by many churches result into being a slave to works as to being born by the Holy Spirit sets one free to following Christ in love. They go to church out of fear, I go to church because of love. I do not need a preacher to call me and tell me I must be in church but I desire to go to church out of love.
Matt: 28 v 18-20. Jesus came up + spoke to them. He said, ‘All authority in heaven + on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptize them in the name of the Father + of the Son + of the Holy Spirit, + teach them to observe all the commands I give you.’ Gal: 5 v 14 Since the whole of the Law is summarised in the one commandment; You must love your neighbor as yourself..Luke 6 v 37 ‘Do not judge others, + God will not judge you: do not condemn others, + God will not condemn you.’ Mark: 9 v 38- 40 John said to him ‘Master, we saw someone who was not one of us driving out devils in your name, + because he was not one of us we tried to stop him.’ But Jesus said, ‘ You must not stop him; no one who works a miracle in my name could soon afterwards speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.’ Psalm 51 v 5 ‘I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceived, I have been rinful.’
if physical liquid water must be present all the time for one to receive salvation then no one could be saved without it. this violates many other scripture therefore making the word of God void and ineffective becauses it condricts itself. now, we both know this is not so, then there has to be another way of comparing scripture with scripture without violation. Then we must explain and rightly divide the word of truth. the truth is no one could be saved on an airplane, island by theirself, desert and the list goes on and on if water has to be available. no one refuses to be baptised in water in order to demostrate their aligence to Christ but if water is not available, salvation is still available to all that call on the Lord.
I sincerely hope that you read this. Baptism is not a work of man, it is the work of God. One submits to baptism according to Acts 2:38 and it does not have to be conducted by a coC minister,however Jesus Himself said to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. You see this coming to fruition throughout the book of acts. Every incidence of conversion was culminated in water baptism except one and that was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Cornelius. This was the first gentile conversion and the only reason Cornelius was given Gods spirit prior to water baptism was in fulfillment of the prophecy given by Isaiah that the gentiles would receive the righteousness of God and it was done to show the Jews that the gentiles were also accepted in this new convenant relationship as cleary explained by Peter in Acts 11. Paul confirms this when writing to the church at Rome when he said in Romans 6:3-5,”Know yea not that so many of us that were baptized in to Christ…Also peter said in I peter 3:18-19,that baptism was not a washing away of the flesh was an answer toward a good conscience toward God which denotes that man must respond to the grace of God which is in Christ Jesus. Also read Acts 15:1-5, when Paul ran across those that had not been properly taught and baptized ad how he corrected them. I pray you will continue your study and not lead many away form the truth of the bible.
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HI Efram, I would like to congratulate you. You have taken 7 or 8 verses and wrangled them out of context and the writers intent,,, to be in exact opposite of what the REST of the bible teaches concerning salvation.
I have a policy of NOT working on this blog on Sundays. SO COME BACK SOON. Because you put a little more effort than some baptismal regenerationist and CoC’ers, I will take your 7-8 points and write a biblical response to your comments here. I have interacted with CoC’ers everyday for almost 3 years. So I know a little about ya’lls tactics and the deadly doctrines ya’ll purport.
I will make good sized response to each of your false claims and twisting of scripture. I sincerely hope that you will not only read my response to you. But that you will attempt to refute my response with ALL YOUR HEART.
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I appreciate your response and welcome the debate. Peter said , “if any speak let him speak as the oracles of God”. As long as we agree to use only the Holy Scriptures(inspired) as opposed to commentary(not inspired) as our only resource and I believe your readers will judge for themselves who in fact is using “tactics” as you suggested.
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Hi Ephram, Thanks for the responce. Why play games already? You talk about the truthfulness of Scripture and the untruthfulness of commentary, yet you are already guilty of using scripture as a pretext and pretext for your preconceptions by ADDING YOUR COMMENTARY.
Lets not play games, no matter what kind of agreement we make about scripture and commentary, we will both be using scripture and commentary. AND people will derive their conclusions from our conversation on both scripture, our use of scripture, and the harmony or LACK THEREOF harmony of our supporting commentary with the scriptures we post.
Also you devalue the legitimate use of examining truth through history and put God in a Box by saying he can only reach people through bible text with no commentary. It is a simple question to ask.
I will be seeking to show 1. That reduced to absurdity, water salvation/Baptismal regeneration is a doctrine that is made from ONLY 8-15 verses taken out of the context of the remaining THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS and really disregards the whole point and most sacred teaching in the bible. THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST FOR OUR SINS. In fact I can give ya 150+ scriptures that says salvation is by faith alone, NOT WATER. 2. Baptismal regeneration was practiced for centuries by Pagans before the RCC brought it into Christianity and made it a mandatory belief, OR DIE. In fact millions have been killed over the doctrine. 3. All cults believe in some form of baptismal regeneration, therefore the “Church of Christ” Cult is not a misnomer. 4. That of all the doctrines of demons, NO OTHER has sent so many millions of people to eternal hell than baptismal regeneration. EXCEPT MAYBE the old “MY WORKS can save me” prescription for eternal doom. 5. That if your depending on ANYTHING ELSE besides Jesus work and death on the cross to save you. You will join the millions and millions damned by this Damnable heresy.
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Let me get right to it. First the volume of scripture regarding a topic does not, in and of itself, mean that it has more validity. Second, one cant use scripture to invalidate other scripture, 2 timothy 3:16. Also, I agree with the bible that one is saved by faith. The issue is what is biblical faith? James describes it as belief in God coupled with works of faith. You, my friend take the scriptures out of context, because when Paul was proclaiming that one is not justified by works, he was referring to works of the law. You see, the law was a system the Jews used as a means as atonement for sin and didn’t realize that Jesus was the fulfillment of the very law they were following. Paul was trying to get them to give up the practices of the law of Moses and obey only the doctrine of Christ, 2 John 9, Romans 7, 2 Corinthians 3, and Colossians 2;14-16. The law was abolished with he death of Christ. Jesus spoke of this kingdom,His body, the church, however He told His disciples that they would usher in this kingdom. this did not happen until the day of Pentecost in acts 2. Without the book of Acts, one would not know how even to become a christian. If so, point me to the scriptures. Read Acts 8:5,12. You don’t seem to understand that man has a part to lay in his own cleansing. God did the big part, but man must respond. John 1:10,11 and John 9 when Jesus anointed the blind mans eyes and told him to wash in the pool of shalom. Man had a part to play. Up until that point Jesus healed without a person playing a part, but He was trying to show them that a time was coming and now is where the true worshiper of God must worship in Spirit and truth, John 4.
I notice you don’t use any scripture to support your claim and contrary to your allusion, I will not use commentary of any type. I will use scripture only. I did not say i would use my own words, but my words will not deviate from scripture. I will not tell you what I think something means.
I notice you don’t use any scripture to support your claim and contrary to your allusion, I will not use commentary of any type. I will use scripture only. I did not say i would use my own words, but my words will not deviate from scripture. I will not tell you what I think something means. Oh, your comment about placing God in a box. This is one of the oldest tricks Ive heard the unlearned of the scripture use, God is so powerful that there is nothing He cant do. If thats your position, why doesn’t He stop world hunger or abortions? Thats absurd and nonacademic. The issue is not what God can do, its what He will do. God will not violate mans free will, Deuteronomy 30:19, Ephesians 1:10-12.
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Hi again Erfram. Don’t get riled up already, I said I don’t like to do any work on this blog on Sunday. It is my day to spend with God, Family and friends. But any other day of the week I enjoy the challenge of logically examining peoples beliefs and how they illogically defend them just because they are in denial of reality,,, Of the facts to the contrary, because they NEED to say they have done something to help save themselves. I will get around to using scripture.
BUT I won’t play into your little ‘I will only use scripture and not commentary” scheme SO THAT YOU WILL be able to try and say later, HEY NICE AND TRUE SCRIPTURE but your commentary is false.
Let me show you the stupidity of that approach. Here is your first post according to you criteria.
Here is the full comment,,,,,
“I sincerely hope that you read this. Baptism is not a work of man, it is the work of God. One submits to baptism according to Acts 2:38 and it does not have to be conducted by a coC minister,however Jesus Himself said to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. You see this coming to fruition throughout the book of acts. Every incidence of conversion was culminated in water baptism except one and that was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Cornelius. This was the first gentile conversion and the only reason Cornelius was given Gods spirit prior to water baptism was in fulfillment of the prophecy given by Isaiah that the gentiles would receive the righteousness of God and it was done to show the Jews that the gentiles were also accepted in this new convenant relationship as cleary explained by Peter in Acts 11. Paul confirms this when writing to the church at Rome when he said in Romans 6:3-5,”Know yea not that so many of us that were baptized in to Christ…Also peter said in I peter 3:18-19,that baptism was not a washing away of the flesh was an answer toward a good conscience toward God which denotes that man must respond to the grace of God which is in Christ Jesus. Also read Acts 15:1-5, when Paul ran across those that had not been properly taught and baptized ad how he corrected them. I pray you will continue your study and not lead many away form the truth of the bible.”
NOW IF YOU HAD PRACTICED The Criteria you set forth,,, it would have looked like this.
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Acts 2:38, Acts 11, Romans 6:3-5, I peter 3:18-19, and Acts 15:1-5
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Now that does not say much at first glance. But considering the BLOGPOST is about the CoC, and they practice baptismal regeneration. We could logically deduce that these verse have been interpreted and applied as salvation by water baptism verses by you.
BUT THAT IS EASY TO SQUASH.
YOU GAVE LESS THAN 20 VERSES
There is more that 31,000 verses
So my response to you,,, according to your rules would be,
ALL OF THE BIBLE ***MINUS*** Acts 2:38, Acts 11, Romans 6:3-5, I peter 3:18-19, and Acts 15:1-5
So you have lost already. Are you ready to have Christ and be IN HIM,,,,, and not just some church with a sign on it?
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BUT if you would like to stick around and continue to be so illogical and tricky in your tactics. I would love to help people see that those verses only say something different than the rest of the bible,,,,,, to those who have a inherent predisposition to want to save themselves through some kind of work.
No word games about work of the law is a different kind of work. Scripture clearly says that work is not grace and grace is not work. And to those that work and repent not of dead works, the debt is still reckoned as wage.
Come back tomorrow and I give you those scriptures,,,, and the 160 + that say salvation is by FAITH ALONE.
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You’re comical. No substance only rhetoric.Some rules shall we? First, scripture cannot contradict scripture. The volume of scripture is irrelevant to its importance. The only place one can find “faith alone” is in the the book of James and it is used in the negative connotation. i speak of no regeneration, I simply stated that baptism is an act of obedience and is for the remission of sins. One must have remission of sins to have the proper relationship with the God of the bible, Luke 24:44ff. When I mentioned commentary, I meant it in the academic sense, not regarding the restatement of biblical text. The key in determining the difference the contextual setting. Ever heard of hermaneutics and homerletics?
Still waiting on scripture.
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Hi Efram, You may be waiting longer than I expected. I am supposed to go out of town tomorrow but my Family is talking about leaving today. If that be the case, I might stay home. I have not decided yet. If I do leave,,, I will not return until Sunday. But one way or another, I will address your post. With ALL of the scripture.
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I look forward to your responses.
One must fight tooth and nail if they are to stand against what God has declared He will do at baptism.
I’m curious, what exactly do you think baptism accomplishes Damon? Do you believe that it should be removed from the Bible? If not, then why did God put it there (please have verses to back up this answer)?
If one takes every verse that mentions baptism, and lists everything that the BIBLE says is linked to baptism, what would that look like Damon?
I was hesitant to post here because you seem to speak with a bloodlust and not compassion for those you feel are lost. But love hopes all things, endure all things, so I figured I should post anyway.
Thank you Efrem for standing up for the truth. And thank you Damon for being willing to open the Bible in this discussion, I’m still looking forward to it.
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Hi Efram and Chris,
ARE YA’LL STILL HERE? Sorry to be away so long.
Efram, I thought about your post several times while I was gone. Ya know, I could write a book of several volumes about salvation. And indeed hundreds of such books have already been written, WITHOUT A MENTION OF BAPTISM. WHY? Because while the subject of salvation is simple, it is also very complex. God had ONE PLAN of salvation from ALL TIMES. GRACE. Apart from works.
I could give a lesson on the atonement. I could show the pagan origins of baptism. I could show the gospel in three verses. I could list what is commonly called the Roma Road to Salvation. You should study Romans. It is a treatise on salvation. I could take the so called “baptism saves verses” that you listed and show how ya’ll take them out of context to make them say exactly the opposite of what the rest of the bible teaches.
There is allotta ways we can approach this. BUT I feel it is best for BOTH OF YA’LL to back up your assertions and implications. Efram, You say the verses you listed prove baptism is essential for salvation. WELL DON’T JUST SAY IT prove it.
Chris,,, You say that I would have to work hard to stand against what God has taught about baptism. Well don’t just assert your so called truth about baptism with a few subjective rhetorical statements that are meant to appeal to piety. PROVE YOUR POINT.
I will be waiting for ya’lls next move. Let the readers see how to do the CoC circular reasoning shuffle. OF ALL cults I have interacted with over the years. NO ONE uses straw men arguments, diversion tactics, changing the subject and other logical fallacies MORE THAN THE COC.
I am sure we will all be entertained for awhile. I will dance with you guys for a few songs.
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I suspected that you would return with scriptures to prove your point,however you stated what you “could do”. I assert that the holy bible teaches that the act of baptism is for the remission of sins in obedience to the gospel message. my proof is the scriptures themselves. let us see these so called scriptures you would use to prove your point so that we may examine them. i have stated some of the scriptures i intend to use, however you have failed miserably in supporting your point. you use conjecture and craftiness and yet no scripture. i ask again show us these scriptures to prove even one point. are you afraid of scrutiny and that your false doctrine will be exposed? truth has nothing to fear. I will state plainly that the bible speaks of atonement both from the law of Moses and the doctrine of Christ, however the question to answered is how is ones sin atoned for? the atonement of the old testament came through daily rituals and sacrifices and one yearly atonement because sins were essentially rolled forward according to the law. as for the doctrine of Christ, our (Christians) sins are atoned for by being baptized into Christ, Romans 6:3-5. Jesus’ death created the way to reach that atonement, colossians 1:13, yet His death alone did not accomplish the saving of ones soul, acts 2:42. peter said in this verse, “save yourself”. Why would peter say that? Read the verse in its context. i ask again, prove your point by stating your scriptural support. you say much without saying a thing. i think your readers are seeing through your nonsensical reasoning. For the grace of God that bringeth about salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly and righteously in this present day.” What is Paul talking about if grace alone saves you? Why did Peter say in Acts 5:32, “God gives his spirit to those that obey Him”. Why did the Ethiopian eunuch respond to Philips’ teaching in Acts 8:5,12,by asking, “see here is water, what doth hinder me from baptized”? You’re running out of excuses about not being able to deliver scriptures. Anyone who reads the scriptures can check for themselves as to whether or not I’m using them out of context. one cant say the same about your postings.
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Hi Efram, Good to see ya back.
Yes I said the next move was yours. You say the scriptures speak for themselves, and yes they do. Your job is to prove that the 10 -15 verses that Baptismal rengerationist use to say baptism is required for salvation, actually mean that baptism saves. Specifically the ones you used in your first post. To do so you have to prove that the rest of the bible is WORTHLESS for salvation without those verses. Cause any cursory reading or in depth analysis of Scripture shows that atonement happened at the Cross and is applied to the believer WHEN HE BELIEVES. OT rituals was a foreshadow and TYPE of the crucifixion. JUST AS baptism is ONLY A TYPE (symbol) of the Atoning death of Jesus and his resurrection and thus our new life IN HIM.
My article here explores the Lunacy of Baptismal regeneration.
Water salvation/baptismal regeneration reduced to absurdity BY Damon Whitsell
https://how2becomeachristian.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/water-salvationbaptismal-regeneration-reduced-to-absurdity-by-damon-whitsell/
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Here are a few relevant post from this blog.
This thoroughly explains WHAT SALVATION IS and how it is accomplished and applied.
What is Justification? Is Justification
http://how2becomeachristianinfoblog.com/2008/10/02/repost-what-is-justification-is-justification-salvation-
This post contains OVER 160 verses that claim Justification (Salvation) is by faith alone. No water baptism or ANY human act of obedience. Even grace and faith are gifts. Here are the verses, they are all copied and pasted on the post.
Luke 7:48-50; 8:12; 18:42 John 1:7, 12; 2:23; 3:15, 16, 18, 36; 4:39; 4:41, 42; 5:24, 45-47; 6:29, 35, 40, 47; 7:38, 39; 8:24, 29, 30; 9:35-38; 10:24-26; 11:15, 25, 26, 41, 42; 12:36, 46; 13:19; 14:1-6, 17:20, 21; 19:35; 20:29, 31 Acts 3:16; 4:4, 32; 8:12, 37; 9:42; 10:43, 45; 11:17, 21; 13:21, 39; 14:1, 23, 27; 15:7, 9; 16:31; 17:4, 5, 11, 12; 18:8, 27; 19:4; 20:21; 21:25; 26:18 Romans 1:16, 17; 3:22, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30; 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24; 5:1, 2; 9:30, 32, 33; 10:4, 6, 9, 10; 11:20, 30-32; 15:13 1 Corinthians 1:21 2 Corinthians 4:4 Galatians 2:16, 20; 3:2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26; 5:5 Ephesians 1:13, 19; 2:8; 3:17 Philippians 1:29; 3:9 1 Thessalonians 1:7; 2:10; 4:14 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:12, 13; 3:2 1 Timothy 1:16; 3:16; 4:3, 10 2 Timothy 1:12; 3:15 Hebrews 4:2, 3; 6:12; 10:39; 11:6, 7, 31 James 2:23 1 Peter 1:21; 2:6, 7 1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13 Jude 5
150+ Verses Proving Justification by Faith Alone: by J.B. Hixson, Th.M.
https://how2becomeachristian.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/150-verses-proving-justification-by-faith-alone-by-jb-hixson-thm/
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NOW WE WILL LOOK AT YOUR COMMENTS
YOU SAID “I will state plainly that the bible speaks of atonement both from the law of Moses and the doctrine of Christ, however the question to answered is how is ones sin atoned for? the atonement of the old testament came through daily rituals and sacrifices and one yearly atonement because sins were essentially rolled forward according to the law. as for the doctrine of Christ, our (Christians) sins are atoned for by being baptized into Christ, Romans 6:3-5. Jesus’ death created the way to reach that atonement, colossians 1:13, yet His death alone did not accomplish the saving of ones soul, acts 2:42. peter said in this verse, “save yourself”. Why would peter say that? Read the verse in its context.”
This just shows how much you don’t know the bible.
The bible says THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SIN without the shedding of blood. Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Of the OT rituals and sacrifices that you say atonement “came through”,,, THE BIBLE
SAYS.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
And certainly if the ritual of shedding animal blood cannot remove sin. NIETHER CAN WATER.
SORRY CHARLIE,,, ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES. NOT WATER
Jesus’ blood ATONED FOR OUR SINS. (Rom. 3:25)
Jesus’ blood established FORGIVENESS. (Matt. 26:28; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:18-22; Rev. 1:5)
Jesus’ blood has granted us CLEANSING FROM SIN. (Heb. 9:14, 22; 1 John 1:7; Rev. 7:14)
Jesus’ blood has given us JUSTIFICATION. (Rom. 5:9)
Jesus’ blood has made us HOLY. (Heb. 13:11-12)
Jesus’ blood has MADE PEACE with God for us. (Col. 1:20; Rom. 5:11; Eph. 2:16)
Jesus’ blood has BROUGHT US NEAR to God. (Eph. 2:13)
Jesus’ blood gives us CONFIDENCE to approach God. (Heb. 10:19)
Jesus PURCHASED us with His blood. (Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:12; 1 Pet. 1:18; Rev. 5:9)
Jesus’ blood secured for us ETERNAL LIFE. (John 6:53-56)
Jesus’ blood FREED US UP to obey God. (Heb. 9:12-14)
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YOU SAID “sins were essentially rolled forward according to the law.”
This is patently absurd. What is “rolled forward” supposed to mean. The Bible clearly says the LAW WAS FOR Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
FAITH, NOT BAPTISM. The law is to increase sin so that grace may abound, AFTER ONE SEES HIS SINFULLNESS AND NEED FOR A SAVIOR. A SACRIFICE NOT a Roman Catholic ceremonial sacrament that has damned millions and the RCC killed millions because of.
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THEN YOU SAID “as for the doctrine of Christ, our (Christians) sins are atoned for by being baptized into Christ, Romans 6:3-5.”
Rom 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized Into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
FUNNY this verse says NOTHING about atonement. TEXT WITHOUT CONTEXT IS PRETEXT. NO MENTION OF BLOOD Nothing but your preconceived notions due to your need to support your doctrine and HAVE A HAND in your own salvation.
The phrase “baptized into” means here “to identify with.” It cannot mean that baptism is the means by which we enter into union with Christ. This would be ritualistic communion and Paul in no way ever talked in you ritual was necessary in order to be saved.
Instead, Paul taught that baptism represented identification with Christ. BUT THE ACTUAL MEANS OF BEING “BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST” IS SPIRIT BAPTISM WHICH OCCURS at the moment of faith. ALL YOU baptismal regnerationist make the fatal mistake of applying water every time you see the word baptize, cleans, or wash.
1Co 10:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our Fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
According to the Bible, you can be baptized without getting wet. These were all baptized into Moses. They were identified with Moses when they crossed that sea on dry ground, and they did not get wet at all.
There are so many people who, immediately when they see the word “baptism,” attach to it the idea of water baptism. But if you study the word of God, you’ll find out that most of the time when the word “baptism” is used, it is not talking about water baptism in any sense.
TO BE “IN CHRIST” is SPIRIT BAPTISM. Yeh I know most of you CoCers say that the Holy Spirit is NOT GOD and that He does not indwell believers. Clearly ONE MUST BE BORN AGAIN, NOT OF WATER as the first birth,,,,, BUT OF SPIRIT. Do you still marvel that YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN?
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Rom 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. and if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in You?
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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THEN YOU SAID “. Jesus’ death created the way to reach that atonement, colossians 1:13”
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
WHERE YOU GRABBING AT STRAWS? It says nothing about “Jesus death created the way to reach atonement” LOL
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
THROUGH HIS BLOOD NOT WATER
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THEN YOU SAID “ yet His death alone did not accomplish the saving of ones soul, acts 2:42. Peter said in this verse, “save yourself”. Why would peter say that? Read the verse in its context.”
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Save yourselves (sōthēte). First aorist passive of sōzō. Literally, Be ye saved. – This Expression here denotes, preserve yourselves from the influence, opinions, and fate of this generation.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
CAN A MAN SAVE HIMSELF? If he could,, HE WOULD NOT NEED A SAVIOR.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
YES YOU SHOULD READ ACTS 2:40 (EVEN ACTS 2:38) IN CONTEXT Because you DO NOT DO SO You falsely assume that the topic is water baptism for remission of sins.
BUT PETER TELLS CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY how salvation and remission of sins happen.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
THEREFOR we know that Peters use of IES (the Greek preposition translated for) should be Rendered because of. AS THIS VERSION SHOWS Act 2:38 (ALT) Then Peter was saying to them, “Repent, and let each of you* be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, to [or, for; or, because of] [the] forgiveness of sins, and you* will receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit.
THIS POST DEALS WITH ACTS 2:38,,,,, at least watch the Greek grammar video CAUSE IT IS A SALVATION ISSUE!!!
Acts 2:38 Satan’s Favorite Bible Verse! w/ greek grammer VIDEO
http://how2becomeachristianinfoblog.com/2008/10/24/acts-238-satans-favorite-bible-verse-w-greek-grammer-video/
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NOW WE WILL LOOK AT YOUR USE OF SCRIPTURE IN YOUR FIRST POST.
YOU SAID “I sincerely hope that you read this. Baptism is not a work of man, it is the work of God. One submits to baptism according to Acts 2:38 and it does not have to be conducted by a coC minister,however Jesus Himself said to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. You see this coming to fruition throughout the book of acts. Every incidence of conversion was culminated in water baptism except one and that was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Cornelius. This was the first gentile conversion and the only reason Cornelius was given Gods spirit prior to water baptism was in fulfillment of the prophecy given by Isaiah that the gentiles would receive the righteousness of God and it was done to show the Jews that the gentiles were also accepted in this new convenant relationship as cleary explained by Peter in Acts 11. Paul confirms this when writing to the church at Rome when he said in Romans 6:3-5,”Know yea not that so many of us that were baptized in to Christ…Also peter said in I peter 3:18-19,that baptism was not a washing away of the flesh was an answer toward a good conscience toward God which denotes that man must respond to the grace of God which is in Christ Jesus. Also read Acts 15:1-5, when Paul ran across those that had not been properly taught and baptized ad how he corrected them. I pray you will continue your study and not lead many away form the truth of the bible.”
Nope THE WORK OF GOD IS Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
AND “work of God” means that He does it, No man comes unless the Father draws him AND Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
SALVATION IS OF THE LORD NOT MAN Jon 2:9
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YOU SAID “Jesus Himself said to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit.”
I covered most of this already but maybe you need to see again the context and what Jesus meant.
Joh 3:3-8Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
NOW WHAT DID JESUS MEAN. We are born in water in our mothers womb. Born by water is in response to “can a man enter the second time into his mothers womb”. Jesus tells him NO BEING BORN OF WATER IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
YOU MUST BE BORN OF SPIRIT.
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THEN YOU SAID “Every incidence of conversion was culminated in water baptism except one and that was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Cornelius. This was the first gentile conversion and the only reason Cornelius was given Gods spirit prior to water baptism was in fulfillment of the prophecy given by Isaiah that the gentiles would receive the righteousness of God and it was done to show the Jews that the gentiles were also accepted in this new convenant relationship as cleary explained by Peter in Acts 11”
“Every incidence of conversion was culminated in water baptism except one and that was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Cornelius”
BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE, Here are nine instances of conversion or salvation in the book of Acts without reference to baptism.
Acts 3:1-4:4 – Peter and John where preaching at the temple (3:1) and in verse 19 the people are told “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord”. And in Acts 4:4 about 5000 believed. There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 5:1-14 – After Ananias and Sapphira where struck down by the Lord, fear came upon the people (v.11) and many signs and wonders were wrought among them (v.12), as a result multitudes where added to the Lord. Act 5:14 “And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women”. There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 9: 32-35 – After Peter healed a certain man with palsy “…all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord” (V. 35) There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 11:19-24 – After preaching Jesus in Antioch (v.20) A great number believed and turned to the Lord (v.21) and were added to the Lord (v. 24). There is no mention of baptism here except in verse 16 and that is referring to John’s baptism by water and the baptism with the Holy Ghost. And that happened before Barnabus arrived in Antioch.
Acts 13:6-12 – Sergius Paulus desired to hear the word of the Lord. Then by the hand of the Lord Paul blinded him for a season. Then he believed being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 13:42-52 – Paul and Barnabus where preaching in the synagogue to the gentiles “And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (v. 48). There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 14:1 – “And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.” Another multitude, this time a great one, believed and there is no mention of baptism.
Acts 17:10-12 – Paul and Silas were preaching the word in the synagogue in Berea, and “many” believed. There is no mention of baptism.
Acts 17:22-34 “Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among them which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them”. There is no mention of baptism.
AND PAUL CLEARLY DESTROYS THE IDEA THAT BAPTISM SAVES
1Co 1:17-19 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
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THEN YOU SAID “ Paul confirms this when writing to the church at Rome when he said in Romans 6:3-5,”Know yea not that so many of us that were baptized in to Christ…Also peter said in I peter 3:18-19,that baptism was not a washing away of the flesh was an answer toward a good conscience toward God which denotes that man must respond to the grace of God which is in Christ Jesus.”
Romans 6:3-5 DOES NOT confirm your teaching that salvation come at baptism. But you should play close attention to terms such as “like as” “in the likeness of” This is clearly symbolical language. IF YOU WOULD JUST READ YOU NEXT “PROOFTEXT” YOU WOULD SEE THAT BAPTISM IS ONLY A SYMBOL.
1Pe 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
NOTHING THERE AT ALL ABOUT BAPTISM. BUT I won’t hold 2 typos against you.
1Pe 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
WHAT IS A “LIKE FIGURE” The like figureG499 G499 antitupon an-teet’-oo-pon
Neuter of a compound of G473 and G5179; corresponding (“antitype”), that is, a representative, counterpart: – (like) figure (whereunto).
A “LIKE FIGURE” is an anti-type. NOT THE REAL THING. Water baptism is the antitype of Spiritual baptism and being “IN CHRIST” as was Noah saved by the ARK another antitype of being in Christ.
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THEN YOU SAID “ Also peter said in I peter 3:18-19,that baptism was not a washing away of the flesh was an answer toward a good conscience toward God which denotes that man must respond to the grace of God which is in Christ Jesus.”
It IS NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh through water BUT it is the answer to a clear conscience that saves. How does a man clean his conscience?
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
WHAT IS DEAD WORKS ?
These two scriptures show the phrase “dead works” in context indicates that this means that man cannot be justified by the works of the law, but only by the blood of Jesus Christ. In other words “repentance from dead works” is the doctrine that we must repent from trusting in our own dead works to save us. Instead, we must trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
Galatians 2:16 – “man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ… for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 – “not of works”
2 Timothy 1:9 – “not according to our works”
Titus 3:5 – “not by works of righteousness which we have done”
Romans 3:21-22 – “by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” Romans 4:4-5 – “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”
Isaiah 64:6 – “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags”
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THEN YOU SAID “ Also read Acts 15:1-5, when Paul ran across those that had not been properly taught and baptized ad how he corrected them.”
Act 15:1-5And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
WOW ANOTHER CASE OF CONTEXTAMONY and NOT ONE WORD about baptism. NOT EVEN IN THE WHOLE CHAPTER.
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Real Churches say Believe and be saved, then be baptized. CULTS SAY BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED. It is by far NOT a misnomer to call the CoC a CULT. It teaches what ALMOST EVERY CULT TEACHES Baptismal regeneration, saved by water. Mormons, Seventh day Adventist, Jehovahs witness and many more cults BELIEVE JUST AS the CoC on baptism. Except each says that only Baptism IN THEIR church saves.
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Well lets see. You use Scripture out of context, Quote scripture that don’t even mention what your talking about, and only about half of them are typos.
AND YET YOU HAVE DONE NOTING BUT SHOW THAT YOUR STILL NOT SAVED BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT TRUSTED IN JESUS FINISHED WORK THROUGH FAITH ALONE.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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The following verses demonstrate the basic principle of the complete and finished nature of Christ’s work:
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
These verses state the complete results or conclusion:
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more.
Hebrews 10:17-18 And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Isaiah 44:22 I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud, And your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
Micah 7:19 He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea.
Isaiah 38:17 Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is Thou who hast kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For Thou hast cast all my sins behind Thy back.
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DO YOU STILL NOT BELIEVE CHRIST DOES IT ALL? HAVE YOU BEEN BORN AGAIN OF SPIRIT? HAVE YOU REPENTED OF YOUR “DEAD WORKS”?
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have
given thee living water.
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Damon,
you said:
“TO BE “IN CHRIST” is SPIRIT BAPTISM. Yeh I know most of you CoCers say that the Holy Spirit is NOT GOD and that He does not indwell believers.”
I’ve never run into “CoCers” who say this, though I do not doubt you have. I know there are groups out there that call themselves by the name CoC and are not in fact His Church. But please be careful not to give the impression that all who use that name fall into whatever group it is you are talking about. The congregation I’m at uses the name “Church of Christ”, though we also use any other name in the Bible to describe ourselves. We certainly believe that the Holy Spirit is God.
We also believe that one recieves salvation at the point of baptism, but only by the power of Christ’s blood (not by the water). We do not teach that anything but the blood of Christ can impart salvation. But that does not mean that one should lump us into the same group as all others who link salvation and baptism.
Regarding 1 Peter 3:20-21- You brought out the term “like figure”. Can you please, by the grammer rules of greek, show what this term is directly linked to in the passage?
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Hi Chris, Notice I said MOST. Out of about 20 CoC members I have interacted with, all but 2-3 Deny the deity of the HS. Several of them go as far as to Personify the Bible as the HS to do so. AS shown in my post here.
PUTTING GOD IN A BOX , the result of the personification of the bible as the Holy Spirit. By Damon Whitsell
http://how2becomeachristianinfoblog.com/2008/08/26/putting-god-in-a-box-the-result-of-the-personification-of-the-bible-as-the-holy-spirit-by-damon-whitsell/
ALOTTA FOLKS CLAIM THE NAME Church of Christ. There is the Church of Christ Scientist, Iglesia ni Cristo, AND The Church of Christ which Joseph Smith called the “Church of Christ” for about 20 years before he changed it,,,,, and about 12 years before Alexander Campbell first used the name,,,,,,
The first congregation in this movement to take the name “Church of Christ” was established in June of 1834 at Knob Creek, in southern Graves County, Kentucky. This church is still in active existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement#Early_churches
YOU SAID “ We also believe that one recieves salvation at the point of baptism, but only by the power of Christ’s blood (not by the water). We do not teach that anything but the blood of Christ can impart salvation’
My post emphatically shows that salvation happens at the POINT OF SAVING FAITH. Exactly what the list of 160 + verses I listed show. NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY you clearly teach that water saves. OR AS YOU PUT IT ‘Imparts salvation”. If salvation happens at baptism, then the mode and substance of “Imparting salvation” or apllying salvation is WATER.
You can dance in semantical circles all day long. IT WON’T CHANGE THE FACT that you teach grace plus obedience, and atonement by blood ONLY WITH WATER.
AS to your question. If you asking to what is the antecedent to,,,, and in reference when citing “LIKE FIGURE”
The antecedent is NOT CLEAR. Because the Greek word for “LIKE FIGUE” antitupon is in the neutered Gender and so is it’s preposition “HO” the term LIKE FIGURE could GRAMMATICALL point to either the ARC of Noah or Water. But common sense and logic shows that they WHERE NOT SAVED BY THE WATER. They where saved BY BEING “IN” THE ARC, which is THE like figure of being “in” Christ.
WHY WOULD YOU ASK If you don’t think water saves?
byG1223 water.G5204 THIS SHOULD BE RENDERED “THROUGH“ water.
G1223 dia dee-ah’
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
1Pe 3:20 TRANSLATION COMPARISON
(ALT) having formerly refused to believe, when the patience of God kept eagerly waiting in [the] days of Noah, while an ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
(ASV) that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
(CEV) They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.
(EMTV) who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
(ESV) because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
(HNV) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noach, while the teivah was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water
(MKJV) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);
(MSG) because they wouldn’t listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact–saved from the water by the water.
(Murdock) which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
(WNT) who in ancient times had been disobedient, while God’s longsuffering was patiently waiting in the days of Noah during the building of the Ark, in which a few persons–eight in number–were brought safely through the water.
(YLT) who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah–an ark being preparing–in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
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Damon,
First regarding the CoC name. People lump me in the “restoration movement”. But it’s only partly so. As far as I know what I believe from God’s word lines up with much of what is believed by the “restoration movement” group. I fellowship with them. But I do not use that term, I simply belong to Christ. And of those who would be considered part of the “restoration movement”, none of them that I’ve met say that the Holy Spirit is not God, and none of them say He does not dwell within us, and none of them limit His working to only through the Bible.
I would ask you to consider looking deeper into those who use the name “CoC” or even those who would say they are part of the “restoration movement”. Your post here would tell the world that anyone who uses these terms is just like the people you’ve encountered. And that’s far from the truth. I’m not speaking to your motives for this, I don’t know them for sure. I am rather pointing out a truth about a people that seems to not have crossed your path until now.
In regards to the “restoration movement” specifically. I should clarify that, though I agree that we should be the Church as it was at first (as Jesus made it and as the Bible declares it to be), i think it is dangerous to call oneself after a “movement”. We are to obey Christ, not the attempts of fallen man. The goal of the restoration movement (as I understand it) is a good one. But only in so far as it brings those who’ve strayed from God back to Him. So with all that said, I will not submit to the restoration movement as any authority over me. I submit to Christ.
Concerning 1 Peter 3. I ask about the term “like figure” not because I’m debating whether it points to the ark or water. I ask because you said a couple posts back that the passage is saying that baptism is an antitype…
“A “LIKE FIGURE” is an anti-type. NOT THE REAL THING. Water baptism is the antitype of Spiritual baptism and being “IN CHRIST” as was Noah saved by the ARK another antitype of being in Christ. ”
The problem I’m having with that is that, as you said, the term “like figure” is pointing backwards (towards either the Arc of Noah or water), but it is not pointing to baptism. That’s the way I’ve always understood the passage, and your own description of the greek only supports it. And if that’s the case then baptism would be the real thing and Noah’s ark would be the anti-type.
If I’m missing your point please clarify. There is a lot of stuff to follow with all the long replies. I’m trying to deal with one passage at a time so I don’t get lost.
Regarding this…
I would like to discuss this further, but after we’ve been able to better consider 1 Peter 3. This discussion has become a jumbled mess, and miscommunication is going to be a problem.
First, i understand typology and yes, the OT sacrifices was a type pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, however baptism was a “type” from Exodus 14:22,30 as the Israelites pass through the sea pointing to the baptism one must recievs today for the remission of sins.. We know this because Paul clearly stated this in I Corinthians 10:1-4 of the baptism that would occur during the reign of Christ, which Christians now live.
Next, you stated many scriptures about the blood of Christ and that ‘it’ saves. This was never in dispute. The question is, how does one come in contact with the blood of Christ? You never addressed that issue. you assert that One is predestined
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Hi again Chris, Hey thanks for coming back and asking questions. I feel your question is handily answered in my post above. One type looks forward, the other backwards.
Your comment here sent of flood of thought responses into my brain. I will have to take some time to digest the thoughts and try to briefly summarize them. My response will probably still be lengthy.
I have some things to do today BUT I want to be thorough. I will post a response tonight or tomorrow. I spent about 3 hrs responding to you and Ephram last night. After I do my daily posting and get my house work done I will be back with that comment. To be honest, I would rather take one or two points and follow them out to some conclusion.
BUT AS WITH “MOST” CoC’ers I have met. That is the last thing they or Efram would want to do. Instead they will obfuscate falsehood after falsehood by Paraphrasing the word (INSTEAD OF QUOTING word for word) and interjecting their own pre-text, as Ephram just did excessively.
IN my response I will only examine one of your principle precepts. Your attempt to disassociate yourself from your theological and historical roots. BUT it will still be lengthy. You can counter respond,,,, or take any one or two subjects or points of your choice and we can run it up the flag pole and see if it will fly.
Thanks Damon
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Hi again Efram
YOU SAID” The question is, how does one come in contact with the blood of Christ? You never addressed that issue.”
It was thoroughly dealt with. I have some things to do,,,,,,,, but I will return to decipher and unravel your continued obfuscations tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks Damon
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Accidentally hit the post button. sorry.
To continue, you used the scripture erroneously by stating that one is predestined by the “work of God” which suggests that man does not have free will. In baptism< one submits to baptism, the remission of sins takes place in the “mind” of God in heaven. It is God that justifies because He is the one who forgives men of sin by ones act of obedience. This does not contradict the rest of the Bible,it harmonizes it. your false teachings are atrocious because you don’t know what how the bible defines belief. you thinks it mental assent,yet the bible clearly states that “the devils believe, and tremble”.(james 2:19) All of that nonsense in those blogs are just a diversion because all one has to do is determine what is biblical belief.
Now the education. We know that one bible verse does not teach all things relative to salvation. this is easily proven In john 3:16,the bible says that “whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life”. Can the devils have the everlasting life He’s referring to here? Of course not. Furthermore, John 3:16 mentions nothing about repentance ,however repentance is required for salvation, which according to you, would be a work. Read Acts 17:30.
I hope your readers read some of those scriptures you posted and they will soon discover that you are totally misrepresenting those scriptures. it is an outrage!
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Hi again Efram
I will address you “POINTS” first thing tomorrow. I just remembered I have BLOGTALKRADIO training tonight for the first time. So I definantly will not have time until in the morning. It is also raining really good here and that effects my satellite ISP and causes me to lose connectivity. .
SO GIVE ME A CHANCE TO RESPOND and I will.
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I respect Cris and his comments because he addresses the issues for the Greek text, however I choose to show that one does need to know greek to prove the bible teaches water baptism. As for you Damon, the issues you have with the catholic church and the restoration movement folk, i am not inclined to speak, because i dont believe what they believe. i am here to simply prove that one must be baptized into Christ to be saved and the only people who will be saved will be in the church/kingdom as clearly stated by Paul in Ephesians 5:23 when it says, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. The body is the church. So one must be in the church to be saved. Baptism places one in the church or in Christ. If you want to call that body of believers the church of Christ as outlined in Romans 16:16, church of the firstborn, church of God, as long as the God we’re speaking of is Christ, it makes no difference. The bible emphatically teaches against denominationalism so that leaves only one body, as Paul outlines in Ephesians 4:4.
AS for the OT. In the OT, the Israelites had daily sacrifices , weekly, monthly and one yearly a day of atonement. “Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD,Lev 23:27. Remember, there were people being saved prior to the coming of Christ beginning in the patriarchal period through the abolition of the law of Moses. All were abolished by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; i thought when i posted that that some things were understood. i hope i dont have to give a history lesson every time we speak.
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Hi again Efram
Here is rule #1 FOR YOU on THIS BLOG. When I tell you I have things to do and need time, and ask you to give me a chance (TIME) to respond. YOUR SUBEQUENT flooding will not be accepted. I approved these two comments.
BUT your argumentum ad infinitum of proof by assertion, will wear thin quickly. Your consistent attempts to poison the well of discussion by begging question after question and addressing a wide variety of Non related peripheral issues (changing the subject, chasing Rabbit trails) will only shortly be tolerated. AND If you denigrate into Ad Hominem your IP and user name will be blacklisted and your comments will not even reach me.
AND quit trying to make appeals to people emotions with your LOFTY and zealous assertions of “educating” or schooling others.
I will respond in the morning! PLEASE do not make any further comment submissions until then. I said I would dance a few songs. But if you want to use trollish tactics, I WILL TURN YOUR JUKEBOX OFF.
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Hi Chris,
Epram could not honor a simple rule and insisted on flooding this comment board even after I asked 2-3 times to wait and give me a chance to respond before submitting again. SO NO COMMENTS WILL BE ACCPETED BY HIM ANY LONGER.
BUT I feel me and you could have descent talk. If you would like to take one or two points and run it up the flag pole. Please do so.
TO THE READERS. My plan was to force Ephram to focus on one point at a time. BUT he continued to flood the comment board. I have many experiences with CoC members. And the VAST majority of them use the same troll tactics as Ephram. I could give links to conversations with CoC’ers that this happened consistently for 3 years. If I wanted to, I could still be involved in those conversations. AND I will not waste my time on anyone who is NOT interested in the truth but rather preserving their status quo. I may respond to some more of Eframs comments. I might even make a post out of it. Since I took 3 hours to address Eframs first and third comments, point by point, line by line and scripture by scripture. . ONLY to have Efram continue to spout rhetoric and scripture taken out of context BY THE TONAGE, Instead of counter responding by addressing any points,,,, in any of my responses to his drivel.
You, Sir, are a false teacher. If anyone ever actually takes your advice and reads the New Testament they will know that you are a false teacher. Please note Galatians 1:8-9.
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Well Loy, First of all, I AM NOT A TEACHER, I am defender and contender for The
historical orthodox Christian faith. Which includes the ***gospel of grace***, Which you, all other CoC members and other cult group members deny. THATS WHY YOUR CALLED CULTS AND DOOMED TO ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM THE ONE YA’LL DENY
Gal 1:3-9 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. ***I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:*** Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 5:1-5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. ***Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.***For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
When you make a claim against a person and claim him to be a false teacher by YANKING a text of it’s context, making it a pre-text, INSTEAD OF PROVING THE TEACHINGS ARE FALSE. That is just an attack against me NOT what you perceive as MY teachings.
ATTENTION: When people cannot defend their positions they often revert to attacking the people who postulate the idea’s,,, instead of attacking the ideas themselves:,,, this is called an Ad Hominem argument. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
If you make another attack against the man instead of the position. YOU TOO will not be allowed to comment here anymore.
THE FALSE TEACHERS ARE THOSE THAT MERELY GIVE “lip service” to saved by grace, salvation/eternal life is the FREE GIFT of God. least you be boastfull.
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You, Sir, are a false teacher by the definition Paul gave in Galatians 1:8-9 and a defender of false teaching and false teachers. Unless you repent, you will be lost.
You are also doing the name calling by calling the church of Christ for which our Lord shed His precious blood to create a cult. Jesus is the Head of His church and will likely not be pleased. Paul speaking to Christians in Ephesus said: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesian 4:4-6).
“And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence” (Colossians 1:18).
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (I Corinthians 12:13).
Paul, in Romans 16:17, said: “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.” I am so marking you.
The doctrine they learned included baptism. Our Lord, Himself said to His apostles in Mark 16:15-16: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” How much plainer can it be that baptism is necessary to be saved?
Works ARE required! James 2:20 “But wilt thou knowest, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” Try putting that verse in the context in which it is meant and see what you get? By the way, faith is necessary to please God: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). So, if you don’t have some works, your faith is dead; and without faith, you are displeasing to God and condemned. Please show me again, how the doctrine you are espousing is not false doctrine??
You are advocating so many errors that it is difficult to address all of them. You do not appear to be honestly seeking the truth. If you are not honestly seeking truth, then the Lord will send you a lie that you might believe it and be damned. “…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).
Please repent of your false teaching and beg the forgiveness of God and then do your best to obey God and make amends for the precious souls that you have caused to be forever lost.
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Hi Loy,
I will respond to ya sometimes today
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There is no way that I could refute all of the false teaching set forth in your article concerning the Church of Christ in few words, but I will say the following for a start.
I have been a member of the Church of Christ since 12 years old, my parents took me all the years possible before that, I will be 70 my next birthday and I have never heard a Church of Christ preacher or anyone else in the Church say you have to have a Church of Christ preacher baptize you, in fact I am not a preacher, but I have personally baptized a few.
How one could contend that a Church of Christ preacher is not saved and at the same time advocate that all you need to do is believe in Christ as your Lord and Saviour is beyond my imagination. The Church of Christ teaches that you must believe in Christ as your Saviour. If that is what saves you, how could doing anything else make your salvation void?
It is correct to say that “to repent” means “to have a change of mind, or as Strongs says: to think differently.
It is from the Greek word “met-an-o-eh-o”.
But I believe all would have to admit that the mind set of the people that Peter was preaching to in Acts 2: 38 was that of living in sin or trying to live according to the Old Law. They needed to change their way of life in many ways as well as their attitude toward Christ. If you notice in Acts 2: 38 Peter said that repentance (and) baptism was (for) the remission of sins. Who would contend that you can be saved without your sins being forgiven. Notice that Peter said nothing about believing in these verses yet we know that they did after what Peter preached.
Peter made it very clear that Both repentance and baptism was for the remission of sins.
Some contend that the word “for” in Acts 2: 38 is from the a Greek word that means “because of”
But the Greek word from which “for” is taken is the Greek word “eis” which according to Strongs dictionary means “to or into” and goes on to say it indicates the point reached or entered.
The same Greek word “eis” is used in Matthew 26: 28 in reference to Christ shedding his blood
“for the remission of sins” The same wording used in Acts 2: 38.
Who would contend that Jesus shed his blood “because of “ or sins being forgiven. If our sins were forgiven before he shed his blood their would have been no need for him to die.
Matthew 26: 28 is speaking of Christ’s part in our salvation and Acts 2: 38 is speaking of our part.
What Jesus told the disciples to do in Matthew 28: 18 – 20.
Belief is for the remission of sins (Acts 10: 43). But notice when you go on down to verse 48 Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Why would he do that if there was no need for it?
Belief, repentance and baptism are all for the remission of sins.
The word “remission” is from the Greek word “af-es-is” which means “freedom or pardon”
To claim that we don’t need to be baptized to be saved is contrary to what the scriptures teach.
I could say much much more about this, but that will be enough for now.
I pray that all will study and seek after the truth in the scriptures and not after the teaching of men.
Bill Abercrombie
What I didn’t ask in my first comment is what do you believe baptism is for.
You go to great trouble to try to prove it is not needed for salvation and you misrepresent scripure in doing so, but you have never said what you believe water baptism is for. That is unless I overlooked what you said about it. If that be the case I would appreciate it if you would put it in simple easy to understand words what you do believe concerning it. Or is it that you deny that water baptism is taught in the bible?
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WELL that is pretty simple Mr Bill.
1Pe 3:21A The like figureG499
G499 an-teet’-oo-pon
Neuter of a compound of G473 and G5179; corresponding (“antitype”), that is, a representative, counterpart: – (like) figure (whereunto).
antitype
1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
2. An opposite or contrasting type.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antitype
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Very good Damon, but you didn’t answer my question. You only gave a definition of what an antitype is.
the antitype (an-teet-oo-pan) in I Peter 3: 21 was Noah and eight souls being saved by water. Or do you deny that?
It is also true that Noah and eight souls being saved by water foreshadowed baptism, which I Pet. 3: 21 says also doth now save us. or do you deny it says baptism saves us?
the word baptism in this verse is the Greek word bap-tis-mah which means immersion. I fail to see how you can deny that the immersion spoken of in this verse is by water since that is exactly what I Pet. 3: 21 says foreshadowed what he was speaking of.
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Mr. Bill, I have NO obligation to respond to your loaded and meant to consternate questions.
I AM SURE THAT PEOPLE ALL THAT ARE GODS ELECT,,,, will be able to see what the bible clearly says about baptism. IT IS ONLY A SYMBOL.
JFI, I have never once had any intentions of winning a discussion with a cult member to get him saved and rescued. This blog is here for seekers to be able to find out what cults really teach before they get into one. AND it is aimed at those cult members that are not indoctrinated to teeth already by their cult, with the chance they might see the light of God.
BUT people like you Bill are going to try to argue with Jesus on judgment day. LOL And let me tell ya how that is gonna work. LOL
So any response I give to you is for the observers benefit.
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That makes it very clear that you don’t have an answer.
Good luck on judgement day, you are going to need it.
I thought it was the duty of Christians to try to help others to be saved and as you put it rescued.
It’s evident you are not interested in truth. I pray that anyone reading your site will be able to see through what you are saying.
You have told no one what the Church of Christ teaches only your warped Idea’s concening it.
Just turning the beginning of your article around a little to show the truth.
David J. Stewart teaches a false religion because he is wrong on the essential Biblical plan of salvation. In fact, he teaches that only those that teach a faith only doctrine will be saved and no one else. That makes him a member of a Cult. He even goes as far as to claim that people who believe you must be baptized as the scriptures clearly teach will go to Hell. I distinctly recall a discussion I once had with a minister that believed such tell me that you could kill, rob, commit adultery, do anything you want to and you will still be saved just because you believe in Christ. David believes the same way. He was arrogant, doctrinally corrupt, and unsaved. He believed that for a person to be saved, they had to have faith only, Well, that’s only one of the things needed to be in Christ, the Church ,where salvation is found.LOL David
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Reposted for the benefit of observers,,
What is Justification? Is Justification Salvation?
http://how2becomeachristianinfoblog.com/2008/10/02/repost-what-is-justification-is-justification-salvation-
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This post contains OVER 160 verses that claim Justification (Salvation) is by faith alone. No water baptism or ANY human act of obedience. Even grace and faith are gifts. Here are the verses, they are all copied and pasted on the post.
Luke 7:48-50; 8:12; 18:42 John 1:7, 12; 2:23; 3:15, 16, 18, 36; 4:39; 4:41, 42; 5:24, 45-47; 6:29, 35, 40, 47; 7:38, 39; 8:24, 29, 30; 9:35-38; 10:24-26; 11:15, 25, 26, 41, 42; 12:36, 46; 13:19; 14:1-6, 17:20, 21; 19:35; 20:29, 31 Acts 3:16; 4:4, 32; 8:12, 37; 9:42; 10:43, 45; 11:17, 21; 13:21, 39; 14:1, 23, 27; 15:7, 9; 16:31; 17:4, 5, 11, 12; 18:8, 27; 19:4; 20:21; 21:25; 26:18 Romans 1:16, 17; 3:22, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30; 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24; 5:1, 2; 9:30, 32, 33; 10:4, 6, 9, 10; 11:20, 30-32; 15:13 1 Corinthians 1:21 2 Corinthians 4:4 Galatians 2:16, 20; 3:2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26; 5:5 Ephesians 1:13, 19; 2:8; 3:17 Philippians 1:29; 3:9 1 Thessalonians 1:7; 2:10; 4:14 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:12, 13; 3:2 1 Timothy 1:16; 3:16; 4:3, 10 2 Timothy 1:12; 3:15 Hebrews 4:2, 3; 6:12; 10:39; 11:6, 7, 31 James 2:23 1 Peter 1:21; 2:6, 7 1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13 Jude 5
150+ Verses Proving Justification by Faith Alone: by J.B. Hixson, Th.M.
https://how2becomeachristian.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/150-verses-proving-justification-by-faith-alone-by-jb-hixson-thm/
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I GUESS IN THE 1500’S,,,,,,, BILL WOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO REMAIN IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULT,,,, THAN JOIN WHAT HE CALLS THE “BY FAITH ALONE” CULT!
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Martin Luther declared, “The doctrine of justification is the article by which the church stands or falls.”
I guess it is EASY to see that the Campbellite Church of Christ CULT,,,,, FAILS COLD and HARD.
WHERE WAS YOUR “Church of Christ” denomination when Martin Luther nailed his theisis to that old infamous door?????????
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MR. BILL, Your comment was NOT approved. If after all this time of you visiting this blog,,, AND you still have not figured out that MY name IS NOT David,,, and I DID NOT write this article. THEN YOU WON’T BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE.
It is one thing to spout an excessive diatribe against a man instead of HIS position and arguments. BUT it is quite another to have a faith that is so easily refuted and indefensible, that you have to visit opposing BLOGS because your scared someone is gonna get led astray, and ALL THE while, YOU have such an indifference for truth,,,, that you don’t even ask yourself,, Hey,,, DID THIS GUY WRITE THIS? AND then proceed to hurl stones at the writer,,,, anyway.
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“Apologetics may bolster faith and dispel doubt, but it cannot bend the will.” – Brian Auten
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Damon,
Thank you again for taking the time to keep up on this post. There’s a lot here to read. I would not be back if I thought we could not have a good discussion.
However, I do have a concern about your responses to a specific question that both Bill and I have asked you.
We both asked you what you thought baptism is for. You never gave a real answer to the question using the Scripture itself. You only said that it’s a symbol, and referenced back to the language of 1 Peter 3:21. But with calling it a symbol you have never provided a single word of Scripture that teaches this stance (nor did you even explain from Scripture what function a symbolic baptism would serve)…
As far as referring to 1 Peter 3’s language regarding your view that baptism is a symbol, do you mean to say that baptism being a symbol is directly in the passage?
1 Peter 3:21 “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”
This verse in no way calls baptism a symbol. One must insert that meaning into the verse if they want to see it here.
What the verse (not me, but the text) does directly say about baptism is:
1-baptism now saves you- by the resurrection of Christ
2-baptism is a pledge (an enquiry; a question; a demand; earnestly seeking
craving, an intense desire) of a good conscience toward God
3-baptism doesn’t save by washing dirt off of your body
these are the only direct statements the verse makes about baptism.
The only other point (that I can see) that could be made from this verse’s own statements about baptism is that it is obviously an immersion into water. I say this because Paul clarifies that washing dirt away does not save. But saying that it is water is a conclusion of reasoning, not Paul’s direct statement. It is possible that one could try to bath in another substance to wash filth off of their body, though they would then need to wash that substance off as well because it would also be considered filth… which would, in the end, require a water baptism to clean their body.
For certain the Spirit of God does not wash filth off of the physical body, nor does the spirit of man. The agent here must be a physical one, with the subject being both physical and spiritual and the result being spiritual. One can only call the baptism in this verse “spiritual baptism” in so far as they mean this: that the body of the man is baptized in something physical and his spirit is spiritually affected by that physical baptism. No further spiritual inference is possible from the verses own words.
So I ask you once more in good faith, what do you believe baptism is for? Along with your own words, please provide Scriptures that themselves (without inserted opinion) validate your belief on the purpose/meaning/function/etc… of baptism. If people are to know the truth about baptism, then they need to know it is truth that comes straight from His word. We cannot ask one another to believe something simply because we believe it ourselves. We must have Christ as our solid foundation.
Thank you again for your time Damon. I pray, if it is the Lord’s will, that in your radio show the truth of God will be known, accurately supported by His Word. And I pray that you will be able to know it and present it there, accurately and from the heart.
-Cris Jesse
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Hi Chris, Hey thank you for the cordiality. And especially TY for the last part of your post. I hope that God hears our prayers.
Hey look man, I am reasonable and almost decent guy. I do not try to misrepresent anyone. I look at beliefs that I see as contrary to the bible. Because I have about 12-15 cult members (3 different cults) and someone in my family was interested in the occult. Well I have been a target for most of my life because of my mainline Christian beliefs. I even had my Dad make fun of me (and the rest of my immediate family),, from about 7-8 until about 38 yrs old, about believing in Jesus because of how he was treated by these family members before I matured.
And I have a bad taste in my mouth because of some CoC members I have interacted with. AND I do realize that NOT ALL CoC are the same. There are even many, over a dozen divisions of CoC (historically speaking). I read several times, from 20-70 % are cultic. And have never found onemember to not be,,, personally in teachings. IT IS NOT my fault that ya’ll do have a form and level of autonomy and some CoC act the way they do. I know it is not yours. BUT hey. I do NOT see myself as fighting coc or the coc. Invisible is the war I engage. And a little bit in the information arena too. But not from hatred BUT that people will know the truth and as few as possible have to succumb to false teachings.
I will have to get some sleep before I decided to answer your post or not. But TY for writing in a descent way.
Damon
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Mr. Bill, Since you insist to continue to submit comments here and because of their content. I will AGAIN tell you that IF you,,,,,, want to know what I think about the CoC and it’s false doctrines,, READ MY WRITINGS.
I have answered every question and concern you have in my writings AND literally hundreds of times in the last 3 years in my interactions with CoC members in discussion rooms. If you don’t find my answers to your concerns and questions. I will provide you with the MSN discussion group talk links. And you can flip through the 3 yrs worth and find it.
AND you fear NOT, this blog will be here until the day I die,, and then some.
You complained that when I speak about the CoC,,,,, I am attacking ever member in Christ church. Then with questions like this
“Do you believe you can be saved and not be a member of Christ’s Church?”
YOU SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE or rather intentional obfuscation, duplicity and double talk.
***Exactly WHAT???*** are you saying about **EVERY** OTHER person who calls Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior IN THE WORLD???,,,,, that does not have a sign with the name “Church of Christ” on their gathering building? WHEN YOU MAKE SUCH CLAIMS and then ask and imply such Questions?
I have never met one CoC member that liked to talk about the grace and goodness of God anyway,,,,, rather they are repulsed by such talk. Since grace is just a stepping stone to works. I have met 4-5 CoC members that could teach EVERY MORMON (even the paid apologist) I have ever talked and debated with,,,,, a thing or two about trolling and disregarding the necessity of Logic in faith and bible study. Therefore committing Logical Fallacies at almost ever turn. BUT IT AIN’T BY ACCIDENT. Rather design and programming.
AND FOR a second time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I am not David and ***neither am I*** the other person you JUST tried to use to make me appear guilty by association. You should really take your problems with these men to someone else.
Be informed that this ministry EVEN it’s name, owes its existence to the behavior of CoC members JUST LIKE YOU BILL.
Everywhere I go I see CoC members going into rooms in which THEY HAVE NO FELLOWHSIP with the people there, only to spout this CoC rhetoric of consternation, and double talk that carries loaded implications unseen at first. That is until everyone realizes your claiming exclusivity to the CoC,,,,, for salvation.
CoC members have overrun almost every room I have ever been in. BUT you aren’t going to do it here. Pat yourself on the back BILL. Good CoC expose articles are getting harder to find. BUT I promise you a few things.
1. Every single CoC expose on the net,,,,,, WILL BE duplicated on this BLOG. 2. I will continue to write on the CoC. 3. I will use your comments here as a basis to do so. BUT you won’t be offered to attach a response as others are. 4. Every time I have to read your name again. It will be one more article that I will write for others to freely duplicate.
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“I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do” —D. Dale Gulledge
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BILL/JACK,,,, It just might surprise you to know how much information I can find out about someone JUST BY THEM posting here. So quit using alias‘s. I have yet to filter you out of existence here. Because I am saving your stuff to use in my writings. SO keep em coming, just be like Christ,,, and have no secrets and no assumed fake identities.
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Damon, It is nice to see you and other people on the blog to be so academic and studious, however lets suppose that you and I were dropped off on a deserted island when we were small and had never attended church, but could read. We had the Bible and started reading it and tended to believe what we read. Without the commentaries, Greek Dictionaries, and what pastor so and so had guided us how in the world would we fall out or believe so differently as you and so many bloggers do. The Lord that I know would cringe at the big deal that we all make out of debating baptisim. Would the Lord send someone to hell that thought that he “legitimatley” in his own mind thought that he should be baptized, or someone that thought that he didn’t need to be. I would hope to think that our Lord would be happy and overall have a good feeling that we truly loved him. I don’t think that my savior would send you or me to hell just because we were on that island and just happened to not be the most schollarly two people on the planet. I would close by saying two things. 1. How much better are the both of us to our Lord than the Hindu’s Muselums, or others. 2. What is more important all the other things that we as Christians should be doing or trying to one up each other.
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Hello Darius, TY for the comment, BUT/HOWEVER before I address your “Yeah Yeah/BUT however,,, set up” and the false premises/ red herrings derived from your false conclusions and the loaded implications in your text. I would like for you to DEFINE your words “my savior”.
My dog woke me up barking, and it is still way early here. I am going back to bed and hope to see a more response worthy comment from you. I hope to see some “studiosity” from you. Instead of just some pseudo- sanctimonious smack of “all you guys are trying to one up each other” BUT I got you all one upped, because “I don’t one up” nobody. Hey everybody, lets just not make waves and pretend Jesus is happy with us all and lets just pretend his only requirement is to “love him”, no matter how you define or apply “Him” OR “love”
Also, could you define your use of the, in this case, used as a derogative term, academic? I don’t see anyone talking about formal education. So just how do you define, use and apply the term?
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Damon, I promise that I had no intention to be derogatory. I simply ask a question about a hypothetical situation that I believe many people have situations that could compare, no education, no support, no (to use your term, studiosity. I may have misused the work acedemic, however a large part of the world does not have a diciplined education. Maybe you can be academic without that type of education, but I would be the exception instead of the rule. I may have used a false premis, but don’t know what it was please tell me. Also although I know what a red herring is I had no intention of using one and don’t where I did unless you are talking about the situation that I said we might be in on the island. I believe that if this situation would be remotely possible then you should defend why, if, how, or why my assumptions would be wrong. Please respond on my paticular questions if possible. I realize I may not be the typical blogger or responder, but my concerns are just as real as anyone’s. Thanks Darius p.S. I apologize for not starting my comments by saying thanks for responding.
Damon, I read my comments and apologize for leaving a word or two out. I forgot about your question about defining “my savior”, I would initially say that quite simply my savior is the Lord Jesus, the son of God. Thanks again.
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Hi Darius, I am one of those people that are grouches in the morning. AND with my dog waking me up, maybe I could have been nicer. Sorry. BUT, I see your whole analogy as a red hearing. And your assertion that me or others are being academical. Where supposed to all be studious, . I could give ya a half dozen verses that generally or specifically say so.
I was just on my way out. I have some musician friends that are in a band and one of them just passed away. So I am going to hang out and maybe play a few beats with them to help out on this booking they had.
BUT this is the biggest irritation in your comment that I seen blaring at me in my morning brain fog. Many people have debated baptism for centuries. Because it is a salvation issue. AND if you don’t think so,, I would like to see your reason and logic for that (in my mind) absurd idea. With biblical responses. A typical universalism argument is just bunk. So don’t play that hand.
If you have not noticed, both sides claim exclusivity to salvation.
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Brother, IMO, you should pick a side and get in the fight. If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything. And Jesus was no pragmatist.
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im not a church of Christ member but YOUR salvation is not GOD’S salvation.
corrupt..corrupt..corrupt!!!
listen to Paul Washer – a true Godly man and don’t wait for Tribulation before you do it..
TY for the comment. BUT I am not a big fan of Washer. IF you care to return and have a discussion on Soteriology, I would be willing to do so. Damon
Efrem: Why am I meeting and going to church with a lot of people that have left the CoC? Some of them used to be preachers in the CoC and one of them taught my bible class and gave me this reason for leaving. I left the doubters and joined the shouters. He said that the CoC wasn’t ever sure of salvation and he just couldn’t preach that any longer so he resigned as their pastor. I only wish you could meet one of these fellows but I am sure you would dodge them for fear of being so wrong.
I think if we used half the time we spend defending our beliefs praying and seeking God we would be nearer to bringing glory to our Father.
Bill Abercrombie I know you will read this for I am 76 years old and got you by six. Why am I going to church with former CoC members and some preachers even two of with Dr. degrees that have left the works of water baptismal regeneration. I know them well and some of them for several years. I have interviewed themm to why and most of them said that there are two much doubt and they refused to preach it any more so they left the doubters and joined the shouters. Maybe you should talk to some of your own people that have left and find out why? I have been chased, accused and hounded by the CoC for over 53 years and know them well and what they teach. I probally can quote as much scripture as you can or more so don’t try to say I don’t know the bible. Your former preachers became very meek and humble after they left and burned their debate papers. I will bet you do know a few of them to but you want admit it for fear of loosing respect from those you try to protect.
This is the most helpful information I have come across, I am a former coc, and have had doubts and confusion on the teachings. All the people who posted pro coc just made me feel a whole lot better I was far away from the lot of you. Damon you could afford to be a little more polite, I think but thanks at least I now know I wasnt crazy.
Hi xCoC,,, I am glad it helped you visiting this site. let me give ya a couple of links I think you will like then I will tell ya why I will not try to be more polite to CoC’ers.
There is a brand new ex-coc book out that I found yesterday. Here is a sample
LINK HERE
Here is where you can buy the whole thing.
http://www.authorhouse.com/Bookstore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=53683
This ex-coc member (he has a great site HERE) is right when he says,,,”The Church of Christ denomination uses four main tactics in debating their pet doctrines. These tactics are generally used by all cultic groups. They are: 1. Change the subject 2. Take scripture out of context 3. Straw man arguments 4. Ad hominem attacks (attacking you instead of the issue)
I am lacking in politeness for a few reasons. But the most prominent one is that the CoC will use trollish tactics (meant just to get an emotional responce) and disregard the basics of logic and Logical Interchange (discussion). AND for those who have not had the pleasure of debating CoC for years as I have. People do fall for the twisting of Scriptures and sometimes it gets tough having to exchange with several people at once who’s only objective is to make you look bad and the CoC as the only one true church. AT ALL COST!!! and BY ANY MEANS!!
After all I am not on a CoC blog attacking them. They are guest here and will run no one over on my watch,,, especially me.. lol 🙂
The author of the above site says,,,”Scripture twisting is an art form that the CHOCD has mastered. The only other organizations that do it any better are the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons…which is nothing to be proud of.”
I have to politely dissagree. 🙂 The only cult I have more exposure to than the CoC is the Mormons. I have debated “Paid Mormon Scholars” and they are not as bad as the regular CoC folks,,, much less “CoC Scholars”
the bible has been rewritten so many times that i’m pretty sure you can’t take it litterally
Hi Clay,,, I just woke up and have some things to do. Sometimes later today I will tell you why I think you are wrong. Thanks for visiting. Damon
Silly me,,, I should have just asked. It is easy to say something. BUT can you prove it. Just when was the bible re-written?
“I respect Cris and his comments because he addresses the issues for the Greek text, however I choose to show that one does need to know greek to prove the bible teaches water baptism.”
…actually, you really ought to know and understand the historical context as well as the importance of linguistic nuance in order to fully understand the Bible.
1Corin 1:15-17 Christ sent Paul not to baptize but preach the GOSPEL
1Coin 9:16-17 Paul said woe unto me if I preach not the GOSPEL, cause the GOSPEL is committed unto me – Not baptism
I am not CoC. It doesn’t matter what label we use, or wear or did wear. It has nothing to do with denominational criteria. It has to do with what God has said and declared and whether we will dig into like a little child and hold fast to His Word – in its simplicity and fulness – in active patient faith-fulness.. There are no tags to wear in heaven.
While it is true Christ sent to Paul to preach the gospel, this does not mean that Paul was commanded never ever to baptize in water, any one at all. He actually did baptize a few folk; however it is plain by all the record that he was to concentrate on the act of preaching. If he had been commanded not to baptize he would not have baptized even those few.
It is plain that Paul understood that water baptism in Jesus name (authority) was part of the gospel as Peter also knew. These two did not preach different gospels. Acts 2:38 is essentially the message that was given Saul of Tarsus by Ananias from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (Acts 22:16). And Paul did receive the Holy Spirit; note his question to those 12 men at Ephesus: “Believing, did you receive the Holy Spirit? (Acts 19:2; LITV) If he had not received the Holy Spirit in the same manner, he would have had no understanding to pose the question. Adn he knew by experience the speaking in tongues by the Spirit of God, as opposed to being a multi- linguist by human effort.
Luke records (Acts 2:47) that the Lord added to the assembly the ones being saved from day to day. Now if you look at 2: 41, you will notice the same word ‘added’. The full verse says “Then truly the ones gladly welcoming his words were baptized. And about three thousand souls were added that day.” Added to what? Obviously the ‘church’ or more correctly ‘assembly’ of called out ones.
And this ‘added’ is placed after they were baptized in water, not before. Likewise, as the Lord saved – in the same manner as recorded prior, they were then added to the assembly, the household of faith. Water baptism was part of the apostles doctrine. Water baptism is indeed as Effrem points out a work of God.
And before you get all excited and object by saying God saves without human intervention, let me ask a few simple questions.
1.What is the primary means by which one hears the gospel in order to be saved? Is it not preaching by HUMAN instruments?
2. (The gospel of salvation centres around the detah burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) – This being the case, could Jesus have died according to the Scriptures without MAN’s involvement: MAKING a cross; MAKING a crown of thorns; MAKING a savage whip; nailing His hands and feet with MAN made nails; pisercing His side with a MAN made spear; taking His dead body down and wrapping it in MAN made linen; and laying His body in a MAN made tomb? And if these two things had not taken place by HUMAN instrumentation, He would never have been raised from the dead by the Spirit of God.
God has involved men in His saving work. And this is the case with ‘genuine’ BIBLE BASED water baptism too. Although man works, it is God who builds.
The OT is a pattern of something better to come in the second Covenant in Christ Jesus. Water baptism is pictured a number of times in the first covenant era.
Gen. 5:29-9:17. God’s sees man’s SIN. God placed His GRACE upon Noah. God revealed to Noah His JUDGMENT on sin – the whole earth was corrupted with sin. God commanded Noah to build an ark (Gen. 6:18) for the SAVING (salvation – soteria Heb. 11:7) of his house. So thus far we have 1. man’s sin; 2. God’s grace; 3 God’s judgment; 4. salvation promised and provided for the few.
Note Gen. 6:22, “And Noah did so, according to all that God commanded him.” (see Acts 10:6, 33, 48)
Next we have the God’s CALLING in to the ark – into the work of salvation God had commanded a MAN to build according to His word. Note what the Holy spirit says about Noah building this divinely appointed ark, – “by faith Noah prepared an ark for salvation of his house.” (Heb. 11:7). Faith must be actively fulfilling God’s commands in order to please Him. This is the whole point of this chapter 11 – the great faith chapter. In every case those people put their faith (gotten from God) to work, and that pleased God. It is no different today. The kind of faith God is still pleased with is that faith that has works which make it complete (James 2:22). Not works according to man, but according to God’s very Word – command. Once again Effrem is right in pointing out James’ clear teaching on what kind of faith is alive.
So Noah being called with his family and all those designated creatures, clean and unclean (a picture of both Jews and Gentiles) went into the ark, and then when the number was complete, the LORD shut him in within (Gen. 7:16).
Then the judgment began on that same day. And what an overthrow of wicked men. Note that the very same waters that drowned the wicked and polluted, were the very same waters that lifted Noah and his household above the world of the dead. “And the ark lifted up on the face of the waters.” (Gen. 7:17)
Peter makes reference to the entire holy record by saying “when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark having been prepared, into which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved though water. Which anti-type now also saves us, baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (1 Pe. 3:20-21; LITV).
Naoh’s baptism was an anti-type to water baptism which NOW – Peter says – saves us. This word ‘saves’ and the ‘saving’ of Heb. 11:7 are the same words meaning exactly the same things commonly use by the same apostles in connection with our being saved through Christ Jesus. Peter also points out that water baptism has to do with our conscience being acceptable to God by the resurrection of Jesus. And Paul speaks of this in Romans 6 and Colossians 3 which are related very much to water baptism. Water baptism is our being joined with Jesus in His death burial and resurrection by faith.
Now we know that Christ died, was buried, and rose from the dead. Noah too as a type, DIED to the world being separated out from it, unto and into his Saviour – God; was BURIED by being hidden out of sight in the ark (a type of Christ) and being shut in by the Lord; and by being RAISED into newness of life, when God called him out of the ark into a cleansed earth.
Death, burial and resurrection. Sin, grace, judgment pronounced, salvation promised and provided for, salvation entered into. Judgment passed. New life gained. All these things common to our salvation are pictured in Noah.
Then there is the crossing of the Red Sea; another picture of water baptism. What a picture!!!
Then we have the Brazen Sea made for Solomon’s temple in which the Levites bathed; another picture of water baptism. Then there is Namaan’s healing another picture of water baptism; it is not by accident that he had to wash in JORDAN, in which river Jesus was baptized. Then there is Solomon’s allegory of the sheep in his song (S of S. 4:2; 6:6). This a a lovely picture of the sheep who get dirty going down into the water – the place of washing – and coming up clean, and being fruitful.
Again, a picture of water baptism. Sin is pictured; water baptism is pictured – a death, burial and resurrection; and fruitfulness – they were ewes in the song. The Father wants us to bear fruit that remains.
A big problem is that we often measure things spiritual with our limited knowledge or experience, or ‘Creed’, or our favourite preacher or some other thing. I have been guilty of this myself. Rather, we need to lay hold of God’s word by faith and be taught by the Holy Spirit, coming to Jesus like a little child once again.
Peace to you all in Jesus name.