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Appeals court rules that Mormon Church is outside of the Protestant Christian faith . . . . .

In a remarkable decision an appellate court ruled that the Mormon Church is outside of the Protestant faith. The decision came in a divorce decree contempt case by the Arkansas Court of Appeals on October 8. According to an October 9 Arkansas Democrat Gazette piece,

“Joel Mark Rownak and Lisa Monette Rownak agreed in their 2005 divorce to raise their children ‘in the Protestant faith.’ The decree bars them from promoting another religion without the other’s consent. In May 2007, Benton County Circuit Judge John R. Scott found Joel Rownak in contempt of that decree based on evidence that Rownak had ‘candidly acknowledged’ promoting the Mormon faith to his sons.”

Interestingly, Mr. Rownak, who is a Mormon testified that the Mormon faith is outside of the Protestant faith. The court, based on Mr. Rownak’s testimony and “evidence” of that effect from the [Mormon] church’s Web site” ruled that the Mormon faith was indeed outside of the Protestant faith and therefore found Mr. Rownak in contempt of the divorce decree.

The significance of this ruling of course is that both an active Mormon (Mr. Rownak) and an appellate court both agree that Mormonism is not a Protestant church. The other significant aspect of this ruling is that the court has made a ruling on a theological matter. While the ruling was technically on a divorce decree contempt case, the grounds for the decision were theological.

http://wfiprestoncondra.blogspot.com/2008/10/appeals-court-rules-that-mormon-church.html

HERE IS THE October 9 Arkansas Democrat Gazette piece

BENTON COUNTY : Court rules against dad in faith case BY CHARLIE FRAGO

Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/239705/

 

A Benton County father found in contempt for violating a custody agreement that barred him from promoting Mormonism to his two sons lost his appeal at the Arkansas Court of Appeals on Wednesday.

Joel Mark Rownak and Lisa Monette Rownak agreed in their 2005 divorce to raise their children “in the Protestant faith.” The decree bars them from promoting another religion without the other’s consent.

In May 2007, Benton County Circuit Judge John R. Scott found Joel Rownak in contempt of that decree based on evidence that Rownak had “candidly acknowledged” promoting the Mormon faith to his sons.

Rownak led his sons in Scripture reading and daily prayer, involved one son in Boy Scouts at a local Mormon church and had one son baptized at the church, according to an opinion written by Judge Sam Bird and agreed to by Judges John Robbins and Robert J. Gladwin.

Rownak argued the contempt finding violated his First Amendment rights, particularly the establishment clause that prohibits the state from discriminating against religion.

Bird wrote that the decree was a valid contract between parties and didn’t violate Rownak’s constitutional rights. He noted that Joel Rownak had requested the language to be included in the decree.

Joel Rownak testified that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints wasn’t a Protestant faith, and the court also considered evidence to that effect from the church’s Web site.

Lisa Rownak had objected to her ex-husband’s promoting Mormonism to their children.

In light of this evidence, Scott was correct in finding Joel Rownak in contempt of the divorce decree, Bird wrote.

At the appeals court, the case is CA 08-193, Joel Mark Rownak v. Lisa Monette Rownak.

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A Mormon Apologist by the name of CC submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons

What follows is PART 2 Facts 10-17

1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org
2. CC’s comments. (You can see CC’s original comments for verification on the above post comments section)
3. my (Damon’s) counter comments.
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FACT #10 Mormon leaders demand total obedience regardless whether they are right or wrong.
The ward teacher’s message for June, 1945, stated:
“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan it is God’s plan.” (Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
Herber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, clarifies further:
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 32)
The Bible warns us in I John 4:l:
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
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CC: “The following quote is a very controversial quote in Mormon circles: “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan it is God’s plan.” (Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)

Visit any Mormon blogs and you’ll see for yourself that we do plenty of thinking for ourselves. If I remember correctly, that quote was an opinion piece and I don’t even know who wrote it, but it doesn’t accurately portray the truth. It makes it sound like we just blindly follow our leaders. It also contradicts what our leaders are always teaching us—that we should gain a testimony of whether what they teach is true or not. Ultimately our “prophets and apostles” teach that we should obey God because of our love for Him. Just as Jesus said: “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.”
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DAMON: Controversial? It should be a source for revolution and mass exodus from the LDS church in my opinion. It is a strange dilemma that CC proposes, God has appointed “prophets and apostles” in the lds church,,,, but what they say really has no authority, Mormons only follow God. BUT if the Prophets and apostles speak, WHO ARE THEY SPEAKING FOR??? God or the church?
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FACT #ll. Mormon leaders have consistently attacked the Biblical doctrine of Salvation by God’s Grace through Faith alone.
In Apostle James Talmage’s book, The Articles of Faith, twice he refers to justification by Faith alone as a “pernicious doctrine,” and further declares:
“The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith alone has exercised an influence for evil.” (pp. 107, 480)
The Bible responds:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5: 1)
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CC: “I’m not sure at all why this “fact” is still being brought up by Mormon critics. Anyone who reads the text of the Book of Mormon themselves can see how compatible it is with the Bible and that no matter what works we manage to do, they do not save us. We are ultimately saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I’ve written on this topic multiple times on my own blog because people who I tried to explain this to didn’t believe me. And I’m just not buying this fact one bit.

Mormon leaders have never attacked Biblical doctrine, since we believe every single verse in the Bible. However, they may have disagreed with the erroneous belief that we are saved without any effort or commitment on our part. We believe that we actually have to respond appropriately to Christ’s grace so that we can be saved, and that we respond appropriately by having faith in Christ, repenting of our sins throughout our life, entering into a covenant with Him by baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, which purifies and sanctifies us and changes our nature.”
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DAMON: CC says “Anyone who reads the text of the Book of Mormon themselves can see how compatible it is with the Bible” I AGREE. The Book of Mormon teaches against Mormon doctrine and agrees with some Christian doctrine. But on the issue of salvation it say “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do” 2 Nephi
25:23
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FACT #12. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie has warned his people against a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus.
McConkie made these shocking statements at a speech given at BYU:
“… gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous. . . . Now, I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. . . .But you have been warned, and you have heard the true doctrine taught.” (Church News, week ending March 20, 1982, p. 5)
In opposition to this, Jesus gives us a personal invitation:
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
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CC: “That’s actually taken out of context. In that particular speech Elder McConkie was warning against emphasizing a special relationship with one particular member of the Godhead while neglecting the other two. Apparently there were some BYU students who were teaching that those with a special or advanced relationship with Jesus can pray directly to Him, but Jesus commanded that we pray directly to our Father, and His Father, but in the name of Jesus Christ.”
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DAMON: I am surprised that we did not hear the “well McConkie was kind of a loose cannon and his words are not our cannon” argument again. McConkie said much more about the subject of having a relationship with Jesus.

While it is true that Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father, Stephen recognized that praying to His Savior was right and the early Church were known as those who “called upon the name of the Lord” (Acts 9:14; 21; 22:16; 2 Cor. 1:2). 3 Nephi 19:17-26 records an incident where Christ is being freely prayed to: “And behold they [Christ’s disciples] began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling Him their Lord and their God” (v. 18).
Verse 24 states that the disciples “…did still continue, without ceasing to pray to him…”
Verse 25 says that “…Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…” The final result of the disciples prayer is recorded in verse 26: “And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.”
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FACT #13. Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, boasted of doing a greater “work” than the Lord Jesus.
Joseph Smith made this incredible boast:
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. . . . Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408, 409)
No true Prophet of God ever spoke such words as these.
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CC: “The quote in which Joseph Smith seems to boast is an interesting one. To understand the issues, we must remember:

1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death
2. Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.

What was Joseph’s intent, and why did he use this approach? As it turns out, he was drawing from the Bible and applying its lessons to his own situation.

In the original context, Joseph was facing intense persecution by many people, including some he had previously considered to be his friends. The statement about “boasting” was supposedly made about a month before he was killed. He made it after reading 2 Corinthians 11 to the congregation. Note the following statement by Paul, in this scripture:

“Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly.” (2 Cor. 11:16-19, NASB)

Paul then launches into a literary tirade where he claims many things to make himself look the fool, to contrast himself with those who the Corinthians were listening to for their words of salvation, instead of to him. His words were meant to compare and contrast what the Saints at Corinth were doing against what he was offering.

In short, Joseph is using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.
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DAMON: WOW, it is amazing how some people will stretch things to justify them.

CC SAID “To understand the issues, we must remember: 1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death 2 Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.”

We’ll look at # 2 first. Paul did not say he was greater than Jesus, Joseph Smith did. There is no context that can justify his heretical statement.

It is foolish to say that Joseph was AS CC SAID: “using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.”

The issue is not persecution but Joes arrogance. Regardless of Joe’s or Paul’s persecution, Jesus is the name that is above every name.

Paul said Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ

Joseph Smith said “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. . . . Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

CC’s #1 claim that “1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death “ is a joke. If the account is written after Joseph Smiths death, then just who is speaking for Joe, wasn’t he dead already? Does the Mormon Church write in it’s leaders words after they are dead?
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FACT #14. In 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord.
At a meeting called by Joseph Smith he instructed the Latter-day Saints that it was “the will of God” to go forth and “prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh-even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 182) Eight years later he reinforced this by stating:
“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written – the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till 1 am eighty-five years old.” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 336)
These are obvious False Prophesies which would make Joseph Smith a False Prophet.
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CC: Nobody is sure if Joseph actually said this particular quote, because there is no other evidence that he did. But even if he did, it still does not qualify as a prophecy. There’s a big difference between the word “should” and “would”, as there is between “perhaps” and “will”.

Joseph’s belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy.

The Savior while here on earth told us that no one on earth knows when the Lord will return: “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36). Because we do not know, we need to constantly be ready for his return, for “in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh” (Matt. 24:44). Joseph was very familiar with the Bible.

However, Joseph Smith did make several interesting statements about seeing the Savior. One of them is a favorite of our detractors. They have misquoted it, misreported it, misinterpreted it and misexplained it. Most often they simply do not complete the quote, making it appear that the prophet said something he didn’t.

The passage in question is found in Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It is reported in abbreviated form, and Joseph acknowledged as he recorded it that he didn’t understand the meaning or intent of the revelation. Joseph Smith recorded:

“I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” (D&C 130:14-15).

Many of our detractors end the quote at this point, and then they assume that the statement is a prophecy that the Savior would come in the year 1890 or 1891, since the prophet Joseph was born in 1805. However, if the reader will continue further in that passage, he will see that Joseph Smith himself stated:

“I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face” (D & C 130:16).

We only learn what the prophet did prophesy by reading verse 17: “I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” Without a doubt, that prophecy came true. The Lord did not return to the earth for His Second Coming before that time.
Joseph made reference to the incident on at least two other occasions, and indicated that his belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy. And Joseph felt very strongly that he wouldn’t live that long, and that his life would be taken, which, of course, it was.
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DAMON: CC SAID “Nobody is sure if Joseph actually said this particular quote, because there is no other evidence that he did”

What does CCC mean. the fact that it is in the official Mormon book THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, proves he said it. And the Mormon church calls it history. In reality Joseph Smith made many false prophecies. But we will get to some of those after we look at his claim that AS CC SAiD “Joseph’s belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy.”
Look at Smiths own words in “I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” (D&C 130:14-15).

When Smith said “if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man” he was prophesying a positive, that if Joseph Smith had lived to be 85 he would see the face of the son of man. Meaning that Jesus would return by the time Joe turned 85. This phrase disproves CC’s assertion that Joe was prophesying a negative, that Jesus would NOT return before Joseph was 85.

Lets look a few other False prophecies of Joseph Smith. Here is one to show that Joseph Smith indeed taught that Jesus would come in his generation,,,

“President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, Vol. 2:189)

Here is one that shows The temple would be rebuilt in Missouri in Josephs day,,

“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)

AND MY FAVORITE,,,,,

“I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).”
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FACT #15. Mormons are taught to “shake hands” with a messenger to determine if he is from God or if he is the devil.
The following information is found in Mormon scripture:
“When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. . . . If it were the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.” (Doctrine and Covenants 129:4, 5,
Rather than trusting in “feelings” the Bible commands us to:
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thessalonians 5:21)
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CC: “ This seems kind of amusing, if not somewhat hypocritical, that critics will claim to be experts on what Mormons are taught and believe. I feel safe in saying that I am the world’s authority on what I personally believe and what I have been taught as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The scripture referred to in the Doctrine and Covenants speaks for itself. We also believe the quoted Bible scripture as well. Perhaps this “fact” is brought up, like so many others, for some “shock value”?”
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DAMON: Yes it is amusing and shocking that people would follow a religion that says such things in their inspired writings.
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FACT #16. Brigham Young claimed that those who leave the Mormon Church would turn “wrinkled” and “black.”
The following curse was pronounced by Brigham Young:
“. . .but let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)
There have been tens of thousands of people leave the Mormon Church – Where are the “black and wrinkled” ones?
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CC: “I have tried and tried and have not been able to locate this particular quote by Brigham Young, but I can comment on Brigham Young’s homilies in “Journal of Discourses”. He said a lot of things that are useful and sound, but he also said a few things that would raise eyebrows of a modern reader. Even prophets are products of their times, and Brigham Young was certainly no exception. Naturally, he was not perfect. Only Christ lived a life of perfection.
Brigham Young, like the majority of American Christians of the time, even seemed to believe in racial inequality. That is to be understood. Latter-day Saints do not expect their leaders to be infallible. Moreover, “Journal of Discourses” is not official doctrine of the LDS church. It’s a collection of sermons and homilies from and for a very different time period than today.”
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DAMON: CC said “I have tried and tried and have not been able to locate this particular quote by Brigham Young” the quote showed it’s source (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)

BUT what else does the Mormon church say about those that leave? Mormonism claims to be the one true restored church and it’s leaders have openly bashed Christianity until the last 20 yrs. See what Mormons teach about the Mormon Church, Christianity and by default, those who leave the Mormon church.

So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christians, But what do Mormons say about Christianity?

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FACT #17. Joseph Smith taught the moon was inhabited by people who dressed like Quakers and lived to be about 1000 years old.
In the Mormon publication, The Young Woman’s Journal, pp. 263 & 264, O.B. Huntington gives this interesting information:
“As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He [Smith] described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”
Now that man has walked on the Moon, there can be no doubt that there aren’t any 6 foot tall Quakers roaming its surface.
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CC: “It’s almost laughable isn’t it? I actually think Joseph intended it to be that way.
Critics claim that Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited, and that this is proof he was a false prophet. They’ll also fail to tell you about all of his real and fulfilled prophecies too.

Nevertheless, the source for this particular claim is not Joseph Smith himself; the first mention comes in 1881 in Oliver B. Huntington’s journal, who claimed that he had the information from Philo Dibble. So, we have a late, third-hand account of something Joseph is supposed to have said. Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young apparently both expressed their view that the moon was inhabited, but we allow all men to have their own views/opinions. To say that if they were truly “prophets” they should have known better than the science of the day would also condemn many prophets in the Bible too.

Prominent scientists of Joseph Smith’s day had published their views of the possibility of people living on the moon. I’m not trying to beg the question; only wanting to keep this brief and in my “own words”. But I could provide references if desired. Suffice it to say that LDS doctrine was not provincial, since it provided for “worlds without number” (Moses 1:33) created by Christ. These worlds held those who would require the gospel, since by Christ “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:24).

As always, prophets and believers are products of their time. Biblical authors, for example, clearly accepted a geocentric (earth centered) cosmos, with a flat earth and heavens supported by four pillars. Like the authors of the Bible, modern prophets are generally beholden to their era’s scientific concepts. I personally think that if Joseph Smith actually said something about the appearance of people on the moon, he was doing it in jest; making a wise-crack about the common speculation. He often used humor to make a point. And Brigham Young was known to often use hyperbole.”
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DAMON: CC SAID “I personally think that if Joseph Smith actually said something about the appearance of people on the moon, he was doing it in jest; making a wise-crack about the common speculation. He often used humor to make a point. And Brigham Young was known to often use hyperbole”

I personally find this laughable that a Mormon would go to such lengths to cover for their founder. This is not a joke or hyperbolic poetry or anything, it is a Mormon who knew Joseph and he says “I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth”

That was not Joseph or Bingham and the man was hardly kidding or speaking in hyperbolic or humorous fashion.

CC says that prophets are a product of their times (and their then current scientific knowledge), that is just false. Prophets are a product of God. CC goes on to give this patently false example that even bible prophets are products of their own times when he says “Biblical authors, for example, clearly accepted a geocentric (earth centered) cosmos, with a flat earth and heavens supported by four pillars”

The bible does not teach a flat earth. The Bible teaches that the earth is basically a sphere in shape. Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.

The Biblical term “Four corners” does not infer the flatness of the earth, but it is an idiom that means ALL. When it says the four corners of the earth, it means ALL of the earth. And although the bible does use the analogy of the earth sitting on pillars to denote Gods’ power and sovereignty over it, the bible clearly says. Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.

Therefore I conclude that CC’s assertion that “It’s almost laughable isn’t it? I actually think Joseph intended it to be that way” is a joke. NO, to think that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God and would be so influenced by his contemporary science that he would say such a things is very very alarming. But to have a Mormon say their prophet and all prophets are a product of their times and and then say He was joking,,, don’t ya get get it. Joseph Smith was just joking,,,, is downright disturbing.
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MY PERSONAL CONCERNS are for the Mormon people who believe in an organization and prophet that has so many problems and pesky little things they always have to answer for like the 17 facts listed in this by Challangemin.org

We see that CC admits that Mormonism is different and that even Christian terms mean different things to Mormons and Christians. It is only rational to discern from this alone, that Mormonism is not Christian, but it does try to be a redefined Christianity and claims to be Gods restored truth and Church.

But we have seen CC say in his defense of Mormonism that Mormons both believe “EVERY WORD” in the bible and then turn right around and say , “as far as it is translated correctly.”
This is the kind of disregard for logic and the law of non contradiction that Mormons have to make to believe in Mormonism.

SO DO YOU THINK MORMONISM IS CHRISTIAN???

Here is more Mormon post on this blog.

DNA proves the Book of Mormon to be fals

So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christia

17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons

Are Mormon and Christian beliefs the sam

A logical proof that Mormonism is false!

The Mormon Testimony: does your bossom b

The Heresy of Restorationsim by Damon Wh

(Mormonism and ) ANOTHER JESUS? By Ed De

LDS: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-da

Is Mormonism Christian ?

Mormon Dilemmas by Damon Whitsell

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A Mormon Apologist by the name of CC submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons

What follows is,,,

1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org

2. CC’s comments. (You see CC’s original comments for verification on the above post comments section)

3. my (Damon’s) counter comments.

FACT #1 The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are WRONG; ALL their creeds are an ABOMINATION in the sight of God; and ALL their teachers are corrupt.

One of the Mormon Books of Scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, says this about non-LDS churches:

“… they were ALL WRONG; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL CORRUPT;…” (Joseph Smith 2:19).

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CC: “The truth about this “fact” is that The LDS Church teaches that all churches have some truth, just not the fullness of the truth. This particular quote refers to the creeds of the churches that we believe are wrong, but not that all the individual Christians who follow them are wrong in their sincere desire to follow Christ the best they know how.”

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DAMON: Mormonism is built on the First visions of Joseph Smith. And while there are 3 contradictory accounts of this First vision, they all agree in making the false assertion that Christianity is apostate and an abomination to God. Mormonism has this in common with all church’s (Christian cults) that started from Campbell’s Restoration Movement.

This post shows what Mormon leaders have always said, and still do say about Christianity.

So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christians, But what do Mormons say about Christianity?

This post will teach those that are nor familiar with the restoration movement and restorationism, that the claim that Christianity had become apostate and needed to be totally restored, is common to ALL CULTS. The Church of Jesus Christ of later day saints is just a part o the heretical Restoration Movement. Mormonism claims to be Christianity RESTORED. Here is a relevant article for that

The Heresy of Restorationsim by Damon Whitsell

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FACT #2. Mormonism teaches there is no salvation outside the Mormon Church and no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie makes this statement:

“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670)

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches salvation is in Jesus alone:

“Neither is there salvation in any other [Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

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CC: “There are many possible interpretations of what salvation means. I fear we may be using the same word and meaning something entirely different. We do, after all, have different theological vocabularies. In this case you fail to adjust your understanding to how Mormons can understand salvation. Bruce R. McConkie’s book “Mormon Doctrine” isn’t actually official Mormon doctrine; only his personal opinions and interpretations of which he wasn’t always right and sometimes he was verged on being polemical.

However, the Book of Mormon, which is indisputable official LDS doctrine is very clear that there is no salvation save it be through Jesus Christ. “There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8)

However, Latter-day Saints believe in a further goal beyond salvation, which is exaltation. This is most likely what McConkie was referring to when he used the term exaltation.

You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with. The Bible is officially part of our cannon. So Mormons agree that “Neither is there salvation in any other [Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)”

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DAMON: I have to agree with some of what CC said here.

CC said “ There are many possible interpretations of what salvation means. I fear we may be using the same word and meaning something entirely different. We do, after all, have different theological vocabularies”.

IT IS TRUE,,, ALL cults redefine Christian terms.

CC said “You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with. The Bible is officially part of our cannon.”

This is just not true, according to the 8th article of the Mormon faith which states “ We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/beliefs/13_articles.htm

As to CC’s assertions that McConkie was referring to exaltation and not salvation, In One sense, exaltation is salvation in Mormonism. But in another sense, Mormonism teaches a universal salvation and “general resurrection”. All men will be saved,,, BUT only good temple Mormon men will be exalted to godhood.

There are more quotes showing that the LDS teach that one must accept Joseph Smith to be saved. Look at Joseph Smiths own words,,, “I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (“History of the Church”, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409, 1884).

Isn’t this an exceedingly prideful statement?

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph. . . .” “He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling as God does in heaven.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, 289

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FACT #3. Mormons are taught to doubt the reliability of the Bible and their leaders have consistently attacked its accuracy.

Joseph Smith claimed:

” … it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.10)

The Bible answers this attack:

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” (Isaiah 40:8)

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CC: “This is actually quite misleading. We believe that the Bible was inerrant as it was originally written by the inspired prophets and apostles, and that it is the word of God, as long as it is translated correctly. We understand the word “translate” more loosely to mean “transmit” or “interpret”. So we actually love the Bible as God’s Word and use it often, but we believe that it must be interpreted correctly. We do believe that there were parts of the gospel which were “plain and precious” that are not now found in the Bible as we know it. More than likely these truths were on completely different books which were lost and therefore didn’t make it into our current cannon. But informed Mormons will tell you that the Bible is very much as close to being accurate in the condition it now is.”

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DAMON: CC said “We believe that the Bible was inerrant as it was originally written by the inspired prophets and apostles, and that it is the word of God, as long as it is translated correctly. “

EARLIER CC said “You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with”

SO WHICH IS IT??? To seal the fact in the readers minds that Mormons do not believe the Bible, why did Joseph Smith rewrite the bible as this wikipedia articles shows?

The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST), also called the Inspired Version of the Bible (I.V.), is a version of the Bible dictated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. Smith considered this work to be “a branch of his calling” as a prophet. The work is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) with some significant additions, clarifications, and revisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Translation

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FACT #4. A basic tenant in Mormonism today is that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan.

Milton R. Hunter explains it like this:

“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer,… this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind.” (The Gospel Through The Ages, p.15)

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that Lucifer attempted to become the Savior: in fact, Jesus created all the angels including Lucifer, so they can’t be brothers. Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus created “all things,” whether “in heaven,” or “in earth, visible or invisible.”

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CC: Again, this is a misleading statement to make. Nor is it a fundamental tenant of Mormon belief. But I admit Mormons have an entirely different framework into which we fit the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve learned a lot from my blogging interactions with people not of our faith, as well as the book “How Wide The Divide?” by Craig Blomberg (an Evangelical scholar) and Stephen Robinson (a Mormon scholar). The biggest thing I realized, and it’s simply huge, is that LDS are unique in their understanding that we are literally God’s offspring, of the same essence or species of God. For Evangelical Christians, that’s only figurative, as they believe we are a different essence entirely than God, who “chose at some point to make creatures distinct from himself–human beings–with the capacity to have a personal relationship with him” (Blomberg).

Stephen Robinson writes: “The real sticking point is not what the LDS think of Christ and his gospel, but rather the different ontological frame or view of the nature of the universe into which Mormons fit the gospel. For Latter-day Saints also believe in the LITERAL fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of humanity. We believe that God and humans are the same species of being and that all men and women were his spiritual offspring in a premortal existence. The main purpose of the gospel of Christ is therefore not so much to get us to heaven as it is to get us HOME.”

So there you have it. We all were a part of the family of God in the premortal existence long before God presented his plan for us to come to earth. This family included Lucifer, before he rebelled and was cast out and became the devil.

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DAMON: CC says “But I admit Mormons have an entirely different framework into which we fit the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve learned a lot from my blogging interactions with people not of our faith, as well as the book “How Wide The Divide?” by Craig Blomberg (an Evangelical scholar) and Stephen Robinson (a Mormon scholar). The biggest thing I realized, and it’s simply huge, is that LDS are unique in their understanding that we are literally God’s offspring, of the same essence or species of God. “

AND HOW CAN CC STILL CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN when he acknowledges such a broad difference between Mormonism and mainline Christianity?

CC said “The main purpose of the gospel of Christ is therefore not so much to get us to heaven as it is to get us HOME.”

The Gospel is clearly stated in the bible, 1Co 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

AND WHY DID JESUS DIE FOR OUR SINS. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Salvation is about being rescued from the wages of our sin. IT IS NOT about exaltation AND salvation is not universal as taught in the Mormons general resurrection.

The bible teaches there is one God.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
 
 
 

 

The book of Mormon teaches there is only one God Mosiah 15:1,5; 2 Nephi 31:21The Book of Mormon Now Zeezrom said: “Is there more than one God?” And he answered, “No.Alma 11:28-29

 

Yet CC and many other Mormons dishonor God and show irreverence toward him by trying to become a God themselves.

Satan tried to become his own God and it cost him. What did it cost him. He got kicked out of heaven and had a place celled hell created for him and those that follow him. Satan tempted Adam and Eve by saying “you shall not die, but God knows that your eyes will be opened and you will be as like God”

A study of the occult will show that Genesis 3: 22 is their “secret doctrine”. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

 

Mormonism is occultic through and through. Google “Occult secret doctrine” and you will see that the teaching that men are gods or can become Gods is the biggest teaching in occultism, and look at the new ager’s and their “Christ consciousness” Do you remember Shirley McClain and her prancing on the beach saying I am God, I am God, I am God,,, in her New Age Special on ABC?

 

What is the difference? It is easy to see that Satan is the source of the teaching that men can become gods.

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FACT #5. Mormonism continues to teach that God the Father is a glorified, resurrected Man, and men and women may become Gods and Goddesses.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie makes this claim:

“God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected Man!” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 643)

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, taught:

” …you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you,…” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346)

The Lord Himself answers this teaching by pronouncing:

“… I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

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CC: This is closely related to that quote by Stephen Robinson. Since we believe we are literally God’s children, we believe we will grow up to become like Him, similar to how children grow up to be like their parents. Obviously we have a different understanding of the nature of God than Trinitarians. But we believe our understanding is biblical. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. We also believe the biblical statements that all three are three and also one. But we reject any post-biblical creeds or councils or statements that attempted to reconcile those two truths.

Therefore, you won’t hear LDS speak much of the Trinity, but of the Godhead. We believe each person of the Godhead is his own being, but that they are one God, or Godhead, as they are one in purpose and intent and glory.

We also hold that it is possible that the Father once had a mortal experience as did the Son, but Jesus was no mere man while he dwelt on earth. He was fully divine and God himself in human form. We’re different in that we are very much mortal, but Christ shows us to way back to the Father. Through Christ’s atonement we believe we can literally be made one again (“at-one-ment”) with the Father as well as the Son. This is the kind of oneness Christ prayed for in his intercessory prayer in John 17.

If we can become “joint heirs” with Them and “one” with Them, than a case can be made that we could also be called gods since we belong to the family of God. But the biggest mistake that critics of the LDS church make is in taking that too far and saying that we believe that we can one day replace God as the supreme ruler of the universe and become objects of worship ourselves. In reality, the goal is to become like them, in attributes and so forth, but we will always reverence and worship the true and eternal God, or Godhead, for eternity.

One helpful clarification about the idea that we can become like God was given by the Church in response to an interview by Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317272,00.html

“We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.”

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DAMON: CC said “If we can become “joint heirs” with Them and “one” with Them, than a case can be made that we could also be called gods since we belong to the family of God”

I just got though listening to Joyce Meyers say about the same thing. She deduced that because humans have humans, Gods must have Gods. But Neither Joyce, the other word faith movement teachers, or Mormons fail to realize is that humans do not create, they merely procreate. God creates. But then again Mormonism claims that God is an exalted man so in reality God does not create anything, Then you run into the question of where did man come from. And how can God exist in a infinite regression of causes. Mormonism teaches exaltation. So regardless of the Mormon rhetoric that they only claim and worship one God, they believe in an infinite number of God’s and say men can become Gods.

This post deals with the IMPOSSIBILITY THAT GOD IS AN EXALTED MAN. A logical proof that Mormonism is false!

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FACT #6. Mormons consider Polygamy a righteous principle which will be practiced in heaven.

Although there is nothing in the Bible that will support this thinking, current Mormon Scripture has this to say:

“. . .if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery . . . . And if he have TEN VIRGINS given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery.” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61, 62)

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Cc: Actually this is quite a debate in Mormonism since we generally don’t like the idea of polygamy, and gave it up in 1890. Yet it is true that we allow that those who were authorized to practice polygamy while on earth will continue to have their families in tact in the hereafter. But nothing is taught about the rest of us “normal” couples having to live polygamy in the hereafter. We won’t be forced to do anything that wouldn’t allow us to have the promised “fullness of joy”. I’d like to note here that monogamy has always been the rule and Polygamy has only been the exception, not only among the 19th century LDS, but even when God commanded Abraham in the Old Testament to have multiple wives.

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DAMON: Actually there is quite a split in Mormonism about Polygamy. While the larger portion of the LDS movement no longer practices polygamy, it is a source of contention and many of the 100 + church splits within Mormonism has been over polygamy since it is taught that in order to enter the highest heaven that those who enter must be living in polygamy.

When CC says “Actually this is quite a debate in Mormonism since we generally don’t like the idea of polygamy, and gave it up in 1890”,,,,,, it must be realized that this only happened with the threat of the United States Army invading Utah and claming war against the Mormon Church.

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FACT #7. Mormons today believe God the Father is married and past leaders have taught both God the Father and Jesus Christ are polygamists.

Apostle Orson Pratt makes these unbelievable statements:

“. . .the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion, was a Polygamist,. . . the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that he approbated the plurality of Wives under the Christian dispensation,. . .God the Father had a plurality of wives,. . . the Son followed the example of his Father,. . . both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time;. . .” (The Seer, p. 172)

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that God the Father and Jesus Christ are married or polygamists.

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CC: “We don’t talk much about it, but since we believe that we are literally children of a Heavenly Father, that it would follow that He is not a single parent, and therefore that we have a Heavenly Mother. But we know absolutely nothing about her, as nothing as been revealed about her. Likewise, there is no revelation about God or Jesus being polygamists, so any past leaders teaching about that was based solely on personal opinion and speculation and is certainly not representative of the general church membership and is not official Mormon doctrine.

Orson Pratt was known to make some pretty outrageous statements in the 19th century which conflicted even with the views of some of the other church leaders of the time. He was constantly needing to be reigned in, especially with his personal views about the above.”

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DAMON: It cannot be denied that Orson Pratt, taught that God the Father and Jesus was polygamist. He was an Apostle of the Mormon church. He was not just a leader. Pratt should have been more that “reigned in” by other Mormon leaders. If the other Mormon leaders did not agree with Pratt, he should have been removed.

CC says “we believe that we are literally children of a Heavenly Father, that it would follow that He is not a single parent, and therefore that we have a Heavenly Mother. But we know absolutely nothing about her, as nothing as been revealed about her”

It is a logical requirement for Mormons to teach about a Mother God, which the bible says nothing about. This is because of their doctrine of exaltation. Men and women can become gods in Mormonism. And their teaching on pre-existence, that we all pre-existed on a planet called KOLAB with our heavenly father Elohim and His wife, our heavenly mother an exalted woman..

But the teaching that there is a female God or a mother God is purely occultic as shown in witchcraft by their Great Mother Goddess, Mother Nature or Mother Gia. The Egyptian Mother Goddess ISIS is a good example. Occult writer Sylvia Browne wrote a whole book entitled “Mother God”

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FACT #8. The majority of the activity in the Mormon Temples is work done in behalf of the DEAD.

Joseph Smith offers this explanation:

“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our DEAD.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)

Although many Mormons are attempting to save their dead relatives, the Bible indicates:

“None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.” (Psalms 49:7)

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CC: “This is a true statement. We believe that baptism is essential to forming a saving covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, as well as signify that our old life is buried and that we are born again as sons and daughters of Christ. Naturally we believe that many of God’s children have died without having had a proper baptism, let alone any baptism. Therefore, temple work is dedicated to doing vicarious ordinances for those who have passed on. In the Spirit World those people will have the chance to accept or reject that baptism, as well as other ordinances, for themselves. We believe this shows both the justice and mercy of God.”

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DAMON: The bible says Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no SECOND CHANCE. Most importantly,,, REGULAR BAPTIMS DOE NOT SAVE, much less proxy baptism for the dead. It is common among the cults to teach baptismal regeneration. Here a couple of post from this blog on baptism.

WATER BAPTISM: A PAGAN AND JEWISH RITE,BUT NOT CHRISTIAN by James Moon

Water salvation/baptismal regeneration reduced to absurdity BY Damon Whitsell

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FACT #9. To the Mormon, the ultimate test that Mormonism is true is an “inner feeling.”

Mormons often refer to this feeling as a “burning in the bosom.” They believe their scripture (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8) gives the best test for determining truth. This test reads:

” . . .study it out in your mind; then you must ask me [the Lord] if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall FEEL that it is right.”

The Bible, on the other hand, tells us:

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy 2:15)

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CC: “We believe that God answers prayers. (See James 1:5). We believe that he speaks to us through His Spirit, which testifies of truth both in our minds and in our hearts. We believe that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. We have faith, and sometimes that faith can grow into certain knowledge. Similar to how we first have faith, before planting a seed, that it will grow. Then if we nourish the seed and it actually begins to grow, then we know was a good seed. And before long, if you haven’t given up on the seed because of unbelief, you’ll be able to taste the fruit for yourself and know if the fruit is bad or good. I planted that seed of faith long ago, and it has grown into a marvelous tree which bears delicious fruit, therefore, I know that the seed of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is a good seed and bears good fruit. But I also acknowledge that you and your faith can bear good fruit as well. I think the Holy Spirit testifies of all truth according to our individual understanding.”

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DAMON: CC said “I know that the seed of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is a good seed and bears good fruit. But I also acknowledge that you and your faith can bear good fruit as well”

CC acknowledges here that HIS GOSEPL and MY GOSPEL are different. Of course his is the true and restored one. But lets examine that and realize what he means. Mormonism and all Restoration movement CULTS say they are the “restored church and gospel”. So they say,,, Christianity became apostate and non existent and the real gospel and church had to be resorted. So on one hand CC wants to claim to be that restored Church and gospel, but then wants to say that Christianity has good fruits. But it cannot be. God only has one Gospel. Either the gospel of Mormonism or the gospel of mainline Christianity is false and one has bad fruits and is not from God. . They cannot both be true.

Christianity says there is one true God and that God became a man to die for the sins of the world. Mormonism says that men are not helpless but have within themselves the ability to become a god. You judge for yourself which one is from God and which one is NOT from God.

Mormons testify that Mormonism is true based on a Burning in the Bosom. CC’s attempt to change the subject does not change the fact that feelings are deceptive.

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FACTS # 11-17 and my Personal concerns about Mormonism WILL BE ADDRESSED IN PART 2 OF THIS POST.
 
 
 

 

 

 
 
 
 

 

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