The bringers of false and strange fire
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Tag Archives: charismatic movement
Charismatic Movement: History and Error by David Cloud
This video is Part Two of a four part video series on the history and errors of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. In this sermon, Bro. Cloud compares the modern use of ‘tongues’ with scripture and history to show the many errors that surround this supposed phenomena. The entire four hour series is available from Way of Life Literature: 1-866-295-4143.
About 4 months ago I read a fascinating article. It was from a Charismatic Pastor. He detailed how some new people in his church started getting “Words of Knowledge” from the Lord,,, ya know a “thus sayeth The lord”,, about the pastor and the vision and mission of the church. In great detail he explained how one person got a “Word from God” that he was supposed to the pastor of that church,, not the current pastor.
After picking up a few supporters for his cause to overtake the pastorship of that church, it finally came to an all out war,, of words and deads. There was plotting and positioning and a host of unchristian like behavior. Then it came down to where the Pastor had to call for a church wide vote and an ultimatum was made by the current Pastor.
The Charismatic Pastor said (my paraphrase),,,
“I have called for a vote on who should be the pastor of this church. If you vote this man in,,, I will silently pack my office and serve the Lord somewhere else. BUT,,, if you vote me to remain Pastor,,, I will not serve in that capacity here unless this man and the people he has rallied to supported him to challenge my pastoralship of this church,,, are excommunicated and no longer allowed attendance here.”
Fortunately the whole church walked the guy and his buddy’s right out the door. And the pastor still serves there. BUT this shows the inherent flaws of the charismatic non denominational system. IT IS EASILY HI-JACKABLE
Just like any guy can stand up and say,,, “Hey God told me I am supposed lead this church“,,, so can any freak come along and say “Hey,,,, God told me I am supposed to lead this movement. “
And my charismatic brothers and sisters,,, this is how the Word of Faith Movement has hi-jacked ya’lls Movement.
As a denominational guy,, I was totally shocked when I read about the attempted take over coup at that charismatic church. I mean if I start a group, bible study, or anything like that,, it is considered a para-church group. NOT THE CHURCH. And it can never become the Church or a Church.
But In the Charismatic movement,,, anyone can start their own church. If I want to serve in my church in the capacity of Pastor,, I have to attend seminary. But If I where only a charismatic,, I could start my own church.
Maybe in a barn,, as Joel Osteen’s Dad did with Lakewood. Maybe in my “Mothers living room“,, as Creflo Dollar did with his World Changers Ministry and Church.
This is the inherent dangers of the Charismatic Movement. Subjectivity and experiences over the objective and never changing truths of Gods word. Which non charismatics believe is a closed cannon. AND God no longer uses prophets,, but speaks to every Christians heart. Cause he has written his law on them. The bible is good enough to thoroughly equip us for every good work. So we don’t need revelation Knowledge,, when the faith was once delivered.
But I digress back to my point. WHICH IS,, Concerning the WoF Movement.
As they say,, there is something rotten in Denmark. BUT here Denmark,,, is your back yard (if you are a charismatic),, there is also something really rotten in your front yard. And may I say with all due respect,, you charismatic guys have really let the Stinking Rot of the WoF movement almost take over your whole movement.
AND WHY? Cause the WoF Guys got their subjective,,, “Hey God told me to tell you” thing to. And who where you to question “a move of God” when the WoF guys showed up, took over and brought a few “new things” in.
Touch NOT the Lords anointed ya know????? Who ever plays the biggest TRUMP CARD wins.
I wished you guys would learn the doctrine of the priesthood of the believers and know that,,, if your not anointed,,, your not one of Gods kids. ALL BELIVERS are Anointed. You’re a priest of God and don’t need a Guru to tell you what the bible says or how to live the Christian life,, the Spirit of God and the Bible does that. (Exodus 19:5-6, First Peter 2:4-9, Revelation 1:4-6, 5:6-10, and many passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews.) AND YOUR ANNOINTED TOO!!! (2 Corinthians 1:20-22, 1John 2:26 and 27)
WELL,,, I don’t know what to say,,, except there is an inherent flaw in ya’lls Charismatic theology. I DON’T WANT TO HURT FEELINGS. But it appears to me that this leaves ya’ll open to so much heresy and false teaching to EASILY take over ya’lls movement.
And boy is it getting wierd over there in Charismatic Christianity. Even Charismatic Scholars such as Gordon Fee and J.Lee Grady (charisma magazine) can see it and are calling for Charismatics to “reign in the movement”. Come back to this blog,,, as I will be posting somethings from these guys.
The pink elephant and 800 pound Gorilla is in ya’ll house. When will you guys wake up,, as a mass movement,,, and kick them out. YOU BETTER HURRY UP, before they kick you out. And all traces of Historical Pentecostal Charismaticism disappears.
A very Concerned Non Charismatic Brother in Christ,
Damon Whitsell
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The Word of Knowledge
OK, this might be a bit controversial, as I’m going to challenge a charismatic shibboleth…
I have had a blog entry in preparation for a couple of years now on the meaning of “word of knowledge”, as I am not sure that the what charismatics tend to use this phrase to mean is what Paul means when he uses it. Many charismatics use “word of knowledge” to refer to supernaturally obtained knowledge about a person. For example, when Jesus says to the woman at the well, “you have five husbands”, this would be seen as a “word of knowledge”. Personally I think that this would more naturally be called a gift of “prophecy” (Gk: propheteia) or even “revelation” (Gk: apocalypsis).
What’s more, there are some concerns I have with the way this gift is used. Very often it takes the form of announcing a specific fact about a non-specific person in a meeting. In other words, it starts with “there is someone here who…”. Now all the examples of “words of knowledge” that can be found in the Bible were directed specifically at the person they relate to. This meant they could be tested, at the very least by the recipient of the word of knowedge. And where Christians use any spiritual gift, that gift should be tested.
I think this non-person-speicific approach can result in “words of knowledge” that are very vague and therefore can be seen as a risk-free form of prophecy, where there is no come-back if it misses the mark. I sometimes hear what I call “words of statistical probablity” e.g. “there is someone here with a bad back” in a room of 500 people. People argue that it causes faith for healing to rise in the hearers. I would say that I have spoken to many for whom this type of utterance leads to skepticism. I have seen non-Christian magicians wow gullible people with probability tricks – “does the name ‘Steve’ mean anything to you?”. I’m not saying that God can’t give a specific prophecy without telling the prophet who it is for, but it just strikes me as out of keeping with the biblical precedents we have.
Anyway, I am not convinced we have enough exegetical material to know exactly what Paul means when he talks about a “word of knowledge”. It is only mentioned briefly in passing (1 Cor 12:8), and not given a definition. The Greek word for “knowledge” (gnosis) could refer to natural knowledge – the type you get by studying and learning, but also could refer to supernaturally revealed knowledge (hence the “gnostics”).
So which is it? Let’s survey the places the word occurs in 1 Corinthians to see whether it refers to knowledge obtained by natural means (i.e. being taught), or by supernatural revelation.
1 Cor 1:5 in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge – probably natural knowledge
1 Cor 8:1 we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. – again probably natural knowledge
1 Cor 8:7 However, not all possess this knowledge. – again natural knowledge (also 1 Cor 8:10,11)
1 Cor 12:8 to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit – the verse in question. not enough information from the context to decide
1 Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. – could be either in this context.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. – OK, now we have the feeling that Paul can use “knowledge” to refer to some kind of supernatural revelation. Surely we will not all be ignoramuses in heaven.
1 Cor 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? – I’ve seen lots of attempts to differentiate between these four terms. I have no idea who is right. Here’s my suggestion. Paul is saying: “revelation or knowledge … in other words … prophecy or teaching” i.e. revelation is another word for prophecy and knowledge is another word for teaching. Its only a guess though.
1 Cor 15:34 For some have no knowledge of God. – this is talking about personal knowledge rather than factual so doesn’t help us
I won’t bore you with all of Paul’s other uses of this term (and there are a lot), but suffice to say that on the whole when “knowledge” refers to knowledge of factual information rather than personal knowledge of God, its source seems to be through natural means. So someone teaches us doctrine, or we study the scriptures ourselves, and we come to have knowledge – knowledge of the truth about God, about doctrine, about the mystery of salvation. In other words, with the exception of 1 Cor 13:8, it seems Paul does not usually use knowledge to mean “something that I didn’t learn from any person or book – God dropped it into my head”. Prophecy or revelation are the words to describe that. What’s more, the knowledge Paul is usually talking about seems to be doctrinal in nature – which again is out of keeping with the idea of facts about people being the normal content of a “word of knowledge”.
So on balance I am tempted to think that the gift of knowledge refers to some who has a working understanding of the Bible and a good grasp of theology, who edifies the church by explaining things to people, whether it be one on one, in a small group context, or in a teaching ministry. They bring a “word of knowledge”, by applying that knowledge in a way that teaches people, and gives them insight to see and appreciate how the Bible applies to them, and to understand God and the gospel better. This is not a dry intellectual gift – the Holy Spirit is impressing these truths on them as they study the word so they can share them with others.
What prompted me to finally post about this was that I listened to Mark Driscoll preaching on 1 Cor 12 (listen here), and he takes a similar line, arguing that the person with this gift is a “book geek” who loves to study and research, and is over the moon at the arrival of a new parcel from Amazon. People with this gift assimilate loads of information and like to hear all sides of an argument. They become a “google for Jesus” as people come to them to ask difficult questions and they love to explain what they have learned in a way that is accessible. Although its a long sermon, its well worth listening to. He also explains in it that his position on the gifts is that he is a “charismatic with a seatbelt”, and his definition of how you know whether you are in a charismaniac church is hilarious (11 minutes in to the sermon). The discussion of the gift of knowledge is towards the end of the sermon.
Anyway, whatever the gift of “knowledge” really means, I like the idea of studying to be a “google for Jesus”. I think that kind of describes a lot of Christian bloggers – theology book lovers who are looking for people to share what they have read with.
http://www.wordandspirit.co.uk/blog/2006/08/11/the-word-of-knowledge/
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Spiritual Abuse Survey: Is YOUR church a safe place?
Take the survey from wickedshepherds.com and see!
Here is a questionnaire to determine just how healthy your church really is. To find out how well it ranks, answer “yes” or “no” to the following questions:
•Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?
•Does the head of your church, along with the other “leaders”, use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?
•Does the head of your church and his “fellow elders” appear to be intolerant or consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?
•Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are “evil” or “defiling”; a “danger to your spiritual welfare”?
•Is leaving your church to join another church that “is not approved by the elders” equal to leaving God?
•Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?
•At church, is there a sense of control, rather than support?
•Is there a relentless obsession of reminding the sheep of “who’s in authority”?
•Are you told not to ask questions as to why others have left? Are you told to accept the statements that the “elders” give you?
•Are books, tapes and CD’s, speakers, music, etc., carefully controlled to keep only the belief structure of your church before your mind?
•Is there is a relentless campaign to keep you around the activities of your church, expecting you to be at all the stated meetings, except if providentially hindered? And if you are absent, is your spirituality and dedication sometimes questioned?
•Is the concept ever so subtly present that, “when you please the “pastor”, God is pleased and when your “pastor” is not pleased with you, God is not pleased with you?
•Is there present, the breaking of even the closest family ties, to “guard” the flock?
•Is there the constant using of guilt and shame as tools of control?
•Is there present at your church the encouragement of the members to spy and report on each other, lest sin be found in the midst?
•Is there present at your church the dominant climate of fear in the group – fear of failing to keep one of the rules, and fear of being held up to public humiliation and rejection?
•At church, are the normal lines between what is private and what is public knowledge broken, and members confess the most personal, and the most minor sins, as the conscience is being surrendered to the “leadership”?
•Are many (if not all) of the results from voting at “congregational business meetings” announced as….. “it is unanimous!”?
•Is questioning condemned as “whispering, back- biting, vicious slander, gossip, nit picking, signs of a proud rebellious spirit, being disaffected and divisive?
•Are those who dissent publicly punished? Are their reputations murdered by veiled, or not so veiled “revelations” of “sins”; past and present, as confidentiality is broken for the benefit of the leaders?
•Is there a misplaced loyalty from Jesus and God onto the leadership, which is idolatry?
•Is there harsh preaching and full of condemnation for your failures and are you deliberately being kept wounded and off balance by the haranguing and condemnation from the pulpit?
•Is “Persevere or be damned” and “listen to YOUR elders; obey YOUR elders”; “submit to YOUR elders” preached over and over again?
•Is paranoia the “very air you breathe”? Paranoia of falling from grace; thinking for yourselves; breaking the many unspoken rules as well as the clearly spelled out expectations of the leader?
•Are you becoming paranoid – carefully watching your every word and even gesture, lest someone report your faults?
•Does a code of silence reign at your church? Is no one to divulge the business of the church, or the faults of the leadership?
•Do the spiritual leaders at your church seem to give you the impression that either covertly or overtly, they have the right to tell you how you should manage your own family; presuming that they know your own family better than you know yourself?
RESULTS
If you answered “no” to all of the above questions, your church is relatively healthy. If you answered “yes” to a quarter or more, your church is showing signs of being unhealthy. If you answered “yes” to half or more, your church is very, very unhealthy. If you answered “yes” to three-quarters or more, your church is an authoritarian cult.
http://endtimesdeception.com/?p=681
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About KennethCopelandBlog.com
The premise behind KennethCopelandBlog.com is exactly what the byline says at the top of every page: My family and I, and those who work with us in ministry, are calling on the man (Kenneth Copeland), his family, and ministry, to simply repent. As you proceed through this blog’s articles and videos—which begins on the Table of Contents page—you will readily see the redemption-focused nature of our efforts.
Further, since we have actually known and worked with Kenneth Copeland personally, our insights into his ministry and practices makes this public rebuke far different that those of others on the Internet.
To learn more about this website’s primary author beyond that which is already revealed within the text and videos of this blog, review my personal ministry blog at RichVermillion.com.
Finally: No contact information is given within this blog. This is because we do not particularly want to be contacted regarding Kenneth Copeland or the issues we are bringing public. We would prefer to simply state our case (here and/or in the media) and then move on with other forms of productive ministry, rather than fielding ongoing questions from people merely curious about the Copelands or their behaviors. Thank you for understanding.
The “Convenient Doctrines” of Preachers in Sin
To continue our foundational teachings from the previous article post, let us now move beyond The Biblical Basis for This Public Rebuke and into a further study of some of the “Convenient Doctrines” often used by errant ministers to camouflage their sins and avoid public accountability.
In the following video teaching, I will address several commonly distorted biblical teachings:
Distorted “love,” “offense,” and “forgiveness” doctrines
Semi-heretical “touch not my anointed” teaching
Unbalanced “anti-strife” messages, actually taught with self-serving agendas
These distorted applications of Scripture are VERY common “convenient doctrines” among corrupt ministers within the Charasmatic-church in general—including within the Word of Faith movement. (They are also are ones typically relied upon by the Copelands in particular.)
So to pick up from slightly before where the last article’s video left off, let us now continue in our review of “convenient doctrines” propagated by preachers in sin. I will then continue from there in the text below with an explosé of another Bible topic often distorted by corrupt preachers:
Judge Not?
Another commonly-twisted teaching—partially-based on passages taken out of their biblical context—is that of “judge not.” In fact, Christians often can be found saying, “Who am I to judge? That’s God’s job alone.” Well, is that true? Not hardly, as we will now see…
Jesus told us:
Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously. (John 7:24, AMP, emphasis added)
Notice: Jesus told us TO JUDGE others… and then simply instructed us to not do so superficially (i.e. without reasonable investigation). Further, Jesus told us to judge the nature of a tree, by first judging the quality of its fruit:
Either make the tree sound (healthy and good), and its fruit sound (healthy and good), or make the tree rotten (diseased and bad), and its fruit rotten (diseased and bad); for the tree is known and recognized and judged by its fruit. (Matthew 12:33, AMP, emphasis added. See also Luke 6:41-49.)
I have heard people say, “Well, the Bible tells me not to judge others…but it DOES tell me to be a fruit inspector!” While I am pleased such people are pointed in the right general direction, they actually need to look up the dictionary definition of “to judge” because you judge fruit when you inspect them (as the passage above clearly articulates). Jesus told us we determine the nature of the tree (and thus, judge the tree) by first examining their fruit. Clearly, Jesus expects us to judge others. Further Paul wrote:
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-14, NKJV)
Notice, Paul clearly told believers to judge others who claim to be Christians by their “fruit” and to avoid those who are immoral. In fact, how can we “put away” such people from our company if we do not first determine (i.e. judge) that they are factually immoral, and take action accordingly?
Paul goes on to tell us in the passage above that it is ONLY the unbelievers who are alone God’s responsibility to judge. We are SUPPOSED to judge those within the Church who display poor character and wicked behavior. I find it remarkable that Christians often display a pharisaical/judgmental attitude toward those who have never accepted Jesus as their Savior, but then refuse to properly judge and avoid people within the Church who are similarly depraved. My brothers and sisters, this is backwards!
Again, Paul wrote, “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore ‘put away from yourselves the evil person.’” We are not only supposed to judge those within the Church who claim to be Christians and yet demonstrate immoral character…we are actually supposed to avoid associating with such people. Paul elaborated elsewhere concerning this practice:
Now we charge you, brethren, in the name and on the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) that you withdraw and keep away from every brother (fellow believer) who is slack in the performance of duty and is disorderly, living as a shirker and not walking in accord with the traditions and instructions that you have received from us….
And as for you, brethren, do not become weary or lose heart in doing right [but continue in well-doing without weakening]. But if anyone [in the church] refuses to obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but simply admonish and warn him as [being still] a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:6, 13-15, AMP)
We are not to “treat them as enemies” (i.e. with contempt and hostility), but to “admonish them as a brother” (i.e. exhort them towards repentance). Until he or she repents, however, they are to be isolated by the brethren “that they might be ashamed.” In other words:
There needs to be consequences for their immoral behavior,
that they may be ashamed for that behavior,
that they may come to a place of godly sorrow,
which then leads them to repentance (see 2 Corinthians 7:8-12, which I also explained in the previous post’s video).
By failing to apply such biblical censure and rebuke, the Body of Christ has actually aided and abetted the sins of others, rather than helping them to repent and become free:
…neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22b, KJV)
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. [or a better translation that is more accurate to the context would read, It is shameful to speak in secret about those things which are done by them.] But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says:
“Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light.”
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Ephesians 5:11-17, NKJV, emphasis added, with my own notes also in brackets)
Of Course, Hypocritical Judgement is Condemned
The Bible certainly does condemn a specific type of judgment, namely, that which is done in hypocrisy. In fact, that is what Jesus was specifically addressing when He made the statement, “Judge not!”:
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me remove the speck from your eye”; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5, NKJV, emphasis added)
Notice what Jesus said: Get the plank out of your own eye FIRST, then you can see CLEARLY to remove the speck from your bothers. In other words, judge yourself before you judge others, lest you find yourself acting in hypocrisy. We are actually admonished by Jesus to help our brothers be free from their own “specks”, so long as we do not ignore our own “planks” in the process. Paul elaborated further on this principle in Romans chapter 2:
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things… And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: … For there is no partiality with God. (Romans 2:1, 3-6, 11, NKJV)
It is ONLY judgment formed in hypocrisy that the Bible condemns, and Paul wrote elsewhere that we are to judge ourselves first and foremost, if we want to avoid the judgement that our Father may bring if we fail to repent in time:
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:31-32, NKJV)
So my brothers and sisters, although the Copelands (or people on their behalves) would perhaps attempt to use the so-called “judge not” doctrines to cover for their sins, the fact remains that we are certainly to judge our brothers and sisters according to their actions (i.e. fruit) and hold them accountable when necessary. However, we need to judge ourselves to be sure we are not practicing the same sin and/or error FIRST, and then help them get free through the public censure and rebuke called for by Scripture.
For the Record
Moreover, I can with all clear conscience say that I have certainly judged myself beforehand concerning these sins and errors that I am exposing regarding the Copelands, because I realize that the same “measuring stick” I use regarding them will be applied to me in return (by them or by others) as Jesus told us in Matthew 7:1 above. Like the apostle Paul, I can claim with a pure conscience:
“Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day” and “And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men” (Acts 23:1 & 24:16, KJV)
I do not claim perfection (which nobody reading this article can either, of course). That is not Paul’s point above at all in the above passage, and neither is it mine. I (like Paul) am simply saying that I have endeavored to live a life pleasing to God, and in which—to the best of my ability—I have treated others with the same respect that I would like to received from them also.
Further, since I am in fact openly exposing the sins of the Copelands and publicly exposing their error (and thus, also clearing my name from association with them and their sin), I can also honestly proclaim as Paul did:
“Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:26-27, NKJV).
Again, I do NOT claim perfection, in either word or deed. I am still a “work in process” on the Lord’s “potter’s wheel” as all believers surely are. However, I have applied the biblical precept and precedent to first judge myself to ensure that I have a pure heart in these particular matters (and my conscience is certainly clear in these regards). And now I am applying the the Bible’s mandate to publicly “judge” and hold accountable Kenneth Copeland, his family, and his ministry (especially its leaders) to that they may repent.
Again, my stated and clear goal is their repentance—and the protection of the Body of Christ from their errant influence.
So with pure intention, and with a clear conscience, I have within both this article and the previous one, laid down the biblical foundations for this public rebuke—and exposed the “conveinient doctrines” used by the Copelands (and others) to cover their sins and error.
Now it is time to discuss how the media fits into God’s plan regarding the Copeland family’s redemption…
•Click here to return to the Table of Contents page•
The Biblical Basis for This Public Rebuke
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=b53b004b0409ce0c9df3
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Dominionism: The New Christian Fascism? Is it ultimately that different from Islamic Fascism?
by Sandy Simpson, 6/29/07
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My answer to the above is “no”. I will prove that in a moment. C. Peter Wagner, as the head “horizontal apostle” (allegedly the modern version of James) has finally admitted that the goal of his “New Apostolic Reformation” based on heretical Latter Rain teachings, is to take dominion over every aspect of human life in His creation.
Apostles and prophets the foundation of the Church and, um, I identify as James an apostle as my function as a horizontal apostle to bring together the people of the body of Christ not only can I do it, I love to do it. Yesterday I was the apostle with a group of about 15-20 prophets we met all day long, and these prophets many of whom are going to be speakers in this conference come under my guidance, coordination and leadership as an apostle. They each have apostles in their own networks but I mean they are under spiritually. But I’m the one that brings them together and when I bring them together things happen. (C. Peter Wagner, National School of the Prophets – Mobilizing the Prophetic Office, Colorado Springs, CO, May 11, 2002, Tape #1)
Our theological bedrock is what has been known as Dominion Theology. This means that our divine mandate is to do whatever is necessary, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to retake the dominion of God’s creation which Adam forfeited to Satan in the Garden of Eden. It is nothing less than seeing God’s kingdom coming and His will being done here on earth as it is in heaven. (C. Peter Wagner, letter, May 31, 2007)
Islam also holds to a very similar Dominionist theology as espoused by the likes of C. Peter Wagner.
Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers … Slay the idolators (non-Muslims) wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (the Koran) as believe not in Allah nor the last Day … Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura [9:5,29,41], paranthetical material mine)
During a mass rally in Gaza this week, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar said, Islam will enter “every house” and become the dominant religion across the entire planet. Zahar was previously the Palestinian Authority’s foreign minister. He spoke at a rally held for the late Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin, and his comments were translated by the Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) organization. (Mahmoud al-Zahar, Lekarev Report, 6/07)
This is the “real battle” between the Shaitan and man. Although Allah … dominates every creation, as He … is the Creator, he also wants the believers to dominate earth. They can then influence people so that kufr (unbelief) has no influence over Muslims to change their beliefs. (Allah’s Governance On Earth, The Official Website of The al-Khattab Family, The Official Website of The al-Khattab Family, Unite & Conquer!!, http://www.al-buruj.com)
Iran’s radical President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared on Thursday in Malaysia that Islam will be the dominant power in the “near future”, the official state news agency reported. (Iran’s President: Islam to dominate world in “near future”, Free Republic, Iran Focus, 3/2/06)
Perhaps if Islam and false Christianity join forces they can accomplish their goal more quickly.
You might say: “Wagner is not advocating death to unbelievers as are Islamic Fascists”. At this point that is true. But doesn’t his statement “our divine mandate is to do whatever is necessary” leave that door open? We will examine the ultimate state of the coming (and already present) world religion which includes the apostate “Christian” church in a moment. For instance, that the Catholics have stated the Muslims worship the same God, that Evangelicals have signed on with Catholics, that many Bible societies use the name Allah in place of YHWH in Arabic Bibles, and that the WCGIP is advocating a world religion is a well known fact. But first we have to understand that our “mandate” as believers is NOT to achieve world domination at any cost.
Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?
This is God speaking to Job. The answer is that no one can set the ordinances of heaven or their dominion over the earth. Even Satan cannot do this. He has only been given temporary “power of the air” (Eph. 2:2). Yet the new “apostles” claim they can legislate in the heavenlies.
“It is time for the apostolic leaders of nations to rise up and proclaim into the heavenlies of the nations where they have apostolic voice and authority to speak and legislate in the heavenlies.” (Tommi Femrite, Open Memorandum Addressing the Twin Towers War released on 9/12/01 by C. Peter Wagner)
“We are no longer to ask God to do what he put us here to do. Rather, it is a time to make clear declarations that will change the atmosphere of our nation.” (Marty Cassady, Open Memorandum Addressing the Twin Towers War released on 9/12/01 by C. Peter Wagner)
God has established governments to set policies and execute strategies in the visible world. He has established the church to do likewise in the invisible world. (C. Peter Wagner, Open Memorandum Addressing the Twin Towers War released on 9/14/01 by C. Peter Wagner)
We must not and cannot legislate dominion in or from the heavenlies. We wait upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to excercise His dominon over the earth at His second coming.
Ps. 49:12-15 Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain; He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish, And of their posterity who approve their sayings. Selah. Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah
Our dominion will come “in the morning”. That is when the new day of the Lord has dawned starting in the Millennium (2 Pet. 1:19). For now we are to complete the Great Commission (Mt. 28:19), not take over the systems of government, businesses and social platforms of the world.
Mr. 10:42-45 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. “Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. “And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Christians, and particularly those whom God has given as overseers of the Church, are NOT to lord it over anyone, especially God’s flock. But there is a day approaching when there will arise false apostles and false prophets who will try to rule, not only the churches, but the whole world. That time has already come.
What is the end result of this Christian fascism? Ultimately it will be the same result as Islamic Fascism, Nazism and any other totalitarian structure based on religious fervor.
Mr. 13:12-13 “Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
This is in reference to “Christians”. In the end times they will turn against each other, led by gangs of power-hungry heretics, and this will ultimately result in “Christian” terrorism and persecution. There is an apostate world religion coming.
Rev. 17:6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
This is the “woman” who tries to ride the beast of world governance into dominion over the planet. In “saving the planet” for God they will trample the true saints. The Holy Roman Empire trampled true believers as did the Inquisitions. Israel did this to the true prophets. There is really nothing new under the sun … only the labels. Make no mistake. This push for world dominion will succeed for a short time just as Satan’s dominion is short lived.
Re 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
But are the true saints overcome in the ultimate sense? No way! We are called to be overcomers in the face of persecution and death in preparation for the end times.
Re 21:7 “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
For the meantime the temporary authority and power will be given to the enemy and those who follow him, including the apostate global “Christian” church lead by the false apostles.
Rev. 17:7 & 13 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. … “These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
If you doubt that the programs of the New Apostolic Reformation, the P.E.A.C.E. plan of Rick Warren and countless other Dominionist agendas are in league with the globalist agenda, then you need to read the NAR and Church Growth sections of my site. I need not belabor or prove that point again here. They are teaching Dominionism in direct opposition to what the Word of God says. Suffice it to say that a great apostasy is underway at this time and it will end in a strong delusion and the death of true believers.
2 Thes. 2:3-112 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
One of the lies those who follow heretics are believing today is the lie of Dominionism. This false theology gets believers to focus their attention on what God has NOT ordained. Then they are swept away in the pantheistic mysticism that has taken up residence in many churches, relying on their feelings to guide them. At that point they are already following the enemy and don’t even know it. If they would search the Scriptures daily they would know they are a tool of the enemy. But rather than repent they continue down the path of heresy, carrying out the ridiculous edicts of false apostles, the false prophecies of self-proclaimed “prophets”, and passing along the fables false teachers make up daily to tickle the ears of their followers until their consciences are branded with a hot iron and they can no longer discern truth from error. At that point they have given in to delusion. When God allowed Pharaoh many chances to repent and he hardened his heart, God finally hardened it for him. God will do the same when He ultimately sends a great delusion on those who no longer have a love of the truth. These deluded ones will end up being the same type of Fascists as their counterparts in Islam.
Re 18:24 “And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
The promise for true believers is that even though Satan and his masquerading apostles (2 Cor. 11:12-15) will have “dominion” over the earth for a time, in the end that “dominion” will be taken away from them.
Da. 7:25-27 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. ‘But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
Victory is assured those who do not try to take dominion over the earth now, but wait patiently for the Jesus Christ to take dominion over the earth in His millennial Kingdom!
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/christianfascism.html
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The Dangers of “Sinless Perfection” Doctrine
By Reese Currie, Compass Distributors
I’ve been receiving an increased volume of e-mail lately from proponents of “sinless perfection” doctrine in response to my article, “Can We Live Sin Free?” None of these supposedly sinless folks offer any argumentation from the Bible, since the doctrine they espouse can’t be found there, but yet they seem quite concerned that I’m doing terrible things to peoples’ Christian walk in maintaining that humans never attain sinless perfection. I am, according to one writer, “an agent of Satan” holding back the true believers in Christ, and should “seek God and be taught of Him.”
Obviously, another article on this is required, since the first, although quite laden with Biblical facts on the matter, does not dissuade these people from e-mailing me to label me a heretic, unknowledgeable, and “Satan’s agent.” So, I offer these facts about people who advocate “sinless perfection.”
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Believe the Bible.
James writes, “For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body” (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, “But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison” (James 3:8).
There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.
The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.
Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Have the Same Religion as the Early Church
Look carefully at the first part of James 3:2. It says, “For we all stumble in many things.” The “we” here refers to Christians. James is identifying himself with “all” the Christians he writes to, stating directly that neither he, nor they, are perfect. “We all stumble in many things.” Since advocates of sinless perfection do not believe they stumble in anything, they disassociate themselves from James—and they are therefore not a part of the Christian religion. James was inarguably a part of the Christian religion, but advocates of sinless perfection refuse to be included in James’ comments toward all Christians, including himself.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Are Spiritually Dead.
People who think they are sinless are obviously experiencing no conviction for sin whatsoever. They believe themselves to be perfect in every way and incapable of sinning. Scripture has already demonstrated that people who do not believe they are sinning are mistaken. In fact, Scripture paints a bleak picture for anyone who is under the delusion that they are without sin.
1John 1:8 states simply, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” People who are oblivious to the fact that they still have sin do not have the Spirit of truth within them. There is no light shining to expose the darkness of their souls.
There is sin in everyone, but how can we explain that a subculture within Christendom, the “sinless perfection” crowd, feels no conviction for the sin they have whatsoever? It is easily explained. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, “If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.”
The Holy Spirit convicts the real children of God for their sins. But fakes, even if they do not realize they are fakes, receive no conviction because, since they are not God’s sons, God does not discipline them.
Two points here point definitively to a condition of spiritual death for people who believe in sinless perfection. First, the truth does not reside in people who say they have no sin. Second, people who never feel conviction for their sins have never been adopted by the Father; they may think they are sons, but they are not.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Refuse to Repent of Present Sin.
1John 1:8-10 says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
The very act of claiming to be sinless is a sin in itself, as this Scripture so ably demonstrates. A person claiming not to have sin deceives himself or herself, and in effect calls Christ a liar.
Being cleared of sin is so simple! All we have to do is confess that we have sinned, and our sin is forgiven and we are cleansed of our unrighteousness. The problem is, a person who considers himself or herself to be sinless cannot confess sin. To confess sinning would run contrary to their belief that they have sinless perfection. So, because they will not admit that they are indeed sinners, they cannot have the forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is for Sinners, Not for the Sinless.
Jesus said it so well: “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance” (Luke 5:32). And yet, the Bible says no one is righteous: “As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one;’” (Romans 3:10). So what did Jesus mean? He meant He did not come for people who claimed to be righteous, He came for those who knew they were sinners. He did not come for the self-righteous; He came for those who would repent, knowing that they needed Him.
Some correspondents have accused me of encouraging Christians to keep on sinning since they cannot be “perfect” and “sinless.” It isn’t my aim to make people sin, but it is my aim to make people recognize reality: they will never be perfect as long as they have a “flesh” component. Unless people will confess this, they have no need of Jesus—and will not get to have Him.
The Struggle is the Proof of Salvation.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” (Romans 7:18-25).
As long as any person has flesh, that flesh will be serving sin. It will always be warring against the spiritual mind. We will be delivered from this sin completely only when we are delivered from “this body of death.” It is only at that point that the Christian is “completely sanctified.”
The absence of this struggle between body and soul means that the body has won and the soul is actually given over to sinfulness. The flesh does not become justified! So if the struggle between body and soul ends, it can only be because the flesh has won.
Closing Words.
Those who think they have attained “sinless perfection” are the most unfortunate of us all. Not only do they remain sinners, contrary to their claim, but because they refuse to admit their sinfulness, they cannot avail themselves of Jesus Christ through repentance, to forgive them and to help them do better.
The Dangers of “Sinless Perfection” Doctrine is Copyright © 2001 by Compass Distributors.
All Scripture taken from The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson Inc.), 1982
http://www.compassdistributors.ca/topics/sinless.htm
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(By Pastor Max D. Younce. Without a doubt, this is the best Biblical examination of tongues I have ever read. Dr. Younce teaches about tongues, miracles and signs from a solid Biblical perspective. You’ll be amazed and edified.)
Face To Face With Tongues
A Verse by Verse Examination and Exposition On the Subject of Tongues By Dr. Max D. Younce, Pastor
HERITAGE BAPTIST BIBLE CHURCH
P.O. Box 573| Walnut Grove, MN 56180 | Telephone (507) 859-2519
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May I lovingly dedicate this book to…
The Good News Bible Church in Dora Lake, Minnesota, where I had the privilege to pastor early in my ministry. This church of believers have meant so much to us, as they truly are defenders of the “faith once delivered unto the saints.”
and…
The people of all the other churches I have been privileged to pastor, the congregations of which with their loving spirit and teachable attitude have contributed greatly to this writing. The many requests for study material about the subject of tongues have forced my “nose to the grindstone” during many a late night session. They made me aware of the need. Thank you!
FOREWORD
If tongues are for today, I want them. If tongues are not for today, I do not want to be deceived. The only way for any person to be convinced is if they are willing to take the Word of God, examine It honestly, and stand 100% on “Thus saith the Lord”! It can be stated no better than Isaiah 8:20, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Of all the tongues advocates I have talked with, they almost always credit speaking in tongues with their desire to witness, their enthusiasm, their love for the Lord … on and on it goes. It seems to supplement what they need to fulfill their Christian life, or make it complete.
I have never spoken in tongues. After examining the Scriptures, I am sure that I never will, because they are not for today. Isn’t it amazing? I have everything in Christ, and more, without speaking in tongues than those who claim tongues. The Christian life is exciting and fulfilling. There is nothing more thrilling than witnessing and leading people to Christ. Three things found in Ephesians 6:17-20 are responsible for the Christian’s motivation and enthusiasm:
Let God speak to You. “Take…the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.” (vs. 17)
Let us speak to God. “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit…” (vs. 18)
Let us speak to the lost. “…and for me…that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.” (vs. 19)
This is all the “spiritual high” we will ever need. Tongues advocates are supplementing the speaking in tongues for something they are missing from Ephesians 6:17-20.
My motivation, encouragement, and enthusiasm comes from God speaking to me and my speaking to Him. The excitement of the Christian life is found in defending the faith, witnessing, and leading others to Christ. I am fully satisfied with this, and need nothing more. I have all I need in Christ … not tongues.
OUTLINE
Acts 2, 10, 19
PURPOSE OF TONGUES AS EVIDENCED TO THE MESSIAH (ACTS 2)
Time of the Holy Spirit’s Coming Defined
Tongues Defined
The Two Workings of the Holy Spirit Defined
PURPOSE OF TONGUES AS EVIDENCED TO THE JEWS (ACTS 10)
Preparation of Peter
Performance of Peter
Purpose of Tongues
PURPOSE OF TONGUES AS EVIDENCED TO THE MESSAGE AND APOSTLESHIP OF PAUL (ACTS 19)
The Background
The Meeting
The Message
The Messenger
I Corinthians 12, 13, 14
THE CONCENTRATION OF THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT (I CORINTHIANS 12)
God’s Gifts to the Individual (1-11)
God’s Gifts to the Church (12-31)
THE CONSUMMATION OF THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT (13)
The Concern of Love (1-7)
The Contrast of Gifts (8-13)
THE CONTROL OF THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT (14)
Church Is to Be Controlled by Edification (16)
Church Is to Be Controlled by Clarity (17-19)
Church Is to Be Controlled by Maturity (20-25)
Church Is to Be Controlled by Order (26-40)
THE COMMISSION
THE CONCERN
THE CONCLUSION
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Tongues/toc.htm
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