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A Mormon Apologist by the name of CC submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons
What follows is PART 2 Facts 10-17
1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org
2. CC’s comments. (You can see CC’s original comments for verification on the above post comments section)
3. my (Damon’s) counter comments.
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FACT #10 Mormon leaders demand total obedience regardless whether they are right or wrong.
The ward teacher’s message for June, 1945, stated:
“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan it is God’s plan.” (Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
Herber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, clarifies further:
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 32)
The Bible warns us in I John 4:l:
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
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CC: “The following quote is a very controversial quote in Mormon circles: “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan it is God’s plan.” (Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
Visit any Mormon blogs and you’ll see for yourself that we do plenty of thinking for ourselves. If I remember correctly, that quote was an opinion piece and I don’t even know who wrote it, but it doesn’t accurately portray the truth. It makes it sound like we just blindly follow our leaders. It also contradicts what our leaders are always teaching us—that we should gain a testimony of whether what they teach is true or not. Ultimately our “prophets and apostles” teach that we should obey God because of our love for Him. Just as Jesus said: “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.”
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DAMON: Controversial? It should be a source for revolution and mass exodus from the LDS church in my opinion. It is a strange dilemma that CC proposes, God has appointed “prophets and apostles” in the lds church,,,, but what they say really has no authority, Mormons only follow God. BUT if the Prophets and apostles speak, WHO ARE THEY SPEAKING FOR??? God or the church?
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FACT #ll. Mormon leaders have consistently attacked the Biblical doctrine of Salvation by God’s Grace through Faith alone.
In Apostle James Talmage’s book, The Articles of Faith, twice he refers to justification by Faith alone as a “pernicious doctrine,” and further declares:
“The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith alone has exercised an influence for evil.” (pp. 107, 480)
The Bible responds:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5: 1)
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CC: “I’m not sure at all why this “fact” is still being brought up by Mormon critics. Anyone who reads the text of the Book of Mormon themselves can see how compatible it is with the Bible and that no matter what works we manage to do, they do not save us. We are ultimately saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I’ve written on this topic multiple times on my own blog because people who I tried to explain this to didn’t believe me. And I’m just not buying this fact one bit.
Mormon leaders have never attacked Biblical doctrine, since we believe every single verse in the Bible. However, they may have disagreed with the erroneous belief that we are saved without any effort or commitment on our part. We believe that we actually have to respond appropriately to Christ’s grace so that we can be saved, and that we respond appropriately by having faith in Christ, repenting of our sins throughout our life, entering into a covenant with Him by baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, which purifies and sanctifies us and changes our nature.”
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DAMON: CC says “Anyone who reads the text of the Book of Mormon themselves can see how compatible it is with the Bible” I AGREE. The Book of Mormon teaches against Mormon doctrine and agrees with some Christian doctrine. But on the issue of salvation it say “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do” 2 Nephi
25:23
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FACT #12. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie has warned his people against a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus.
McConkie made these shocking statements at a speech given at BYU:
“… gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous. . . . Now, I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. . . .But you have been warned, and you have heard the true doctrine taught.” (Church News, week ending March 20, 1982, p. 5)
In opposition to this, Jesus gives us a personal invitation:
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
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CC: “That’s actually taken out of context. In that particular speech Elder McConkie was warning against emphasizing a special relationship with one particular member of the Godhead while neglecting the other two. Apparently there were some BYU students who were teaching that those with a special or advanced relationship with Jesus can pray directly to Him, but Jesus commanded that we pray directly to our Father, and His Father, but in the name of Jesus Christ.”
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DAMON: I am surprised that we did not hear the “well McConkie was kind of a loose cannon and his words are not our cannon” argument again. McConkie said much more about the subject of having a relationship with Jesus.
While it is true that Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father, Stephen recognized that praying to His Savior was right and the early Church were known as those who “called upon the name of the Lord” (Acts 9:14; 21; 22:16; 2 Cor. 1:2). 3 Nephi 19:17-26 records an incident where Christ is being freely prayed to: “And behold they [Christ’s disciples] began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling Him their Lord and their God” (v. 18).
Verse 24 states that the disciples “…did still continue, without ceasing to pray to him…”
Verse 25 says that “…Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…” The final result of the disciples prayer is recorded in verse 26: “And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.”
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FACT #13. Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, boasted of doing a greater “work” than the Lord Jesus.
Joseph Smith made this incredible boast:
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. . . . Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408, 409)
No true Prophet of God ever spoke such words as these.
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CC: “The quote in which Joseph Smith seems to boast is an interesting one. To understand the issues, we must remember:
1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death
2. Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.
What was Joseph’s intent, and why did he use this approach? As it turns out, he was drawing from the Bible and applying its lessons to his own situation.
In the original context, Joseph was facing intense persecution by many people, including some he had previously considered to be his friends. The statement about “boasting” was supposedly made about a month before he was killed. He made it after reading 2 Corinthians 11 to the congregation. Note the following statement by Paul, in this scripture:
“Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly.” (2 Cor. 11:16-19, NASB)
Paul then launches into a literary tirade where he claims many things to make himself look the fool, to contrast himself with those who the Corinthians were listening to for their words of salvation, instead of to him. His words were meant to compare and contrast what the Saints at Corinth were doing against what he was offering.
In short, Joseph is using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.
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DAMON: WOW, it is amazing how some people will stretch things to justify them.
CC SAID “To understand the issues, we must remember: 1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death 2 Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.”
We’ll look at # 2 first. Paul did not say he was greater than Jesus, Joseph Smith did. There is no context that can justify his heretical statement.
It is foolish to say that Joseph was AS CC SAID: “using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.”
The issue is not persecution but Joes arrogance. Regardless of Joe’s or Paul’s persecution, Jesus is the name that is above every name.
Paul said Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
Joseph Smith said “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. . . . Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
CC’s #1 claim that “1. It is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death “ is a joke. If the account is written after Joseph Smiths death, then just who is speaking for Joe, wasn’t he dead already? Does the Mormon Church write in it’s leaders words after they are dead?
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FACT #14. In 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord.
At a meeting called by Joseph Smith he instructed the Latter-day Saints that it was “the will of God” to go forth and “prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh-even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 182) Eight years later he reinforced this by stating:
“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written – the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till 1 am eighty-five years old.” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 336)
These are obvious False Prophesies which would make Joseph Smith a False Prophet.
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CC: Nobody is sure if Joseph actually said this particular quote, because there is no other evidence that he did. But even if he did, it still does not qualify as a prophecy. There’s a big difference between the word “should” and “would”, as there is between “perhaps” and “will”.
Joseph’s belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy.
The Savior while here on earth told us that no one on earth knows when the Lord will return: “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36). Because we do not know, we need to constantly be ready for his return, for “in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh” (Matt. 24:44). Joseph was very familiar with the Bible.
However, Joseph Smith did make several interesting statements about seeing the Savior. One of them is a favorite of our detractors. They have misquoted it, misreported it, misinterpreted it and misexplained it. Most often they simply do not complete the quote, making it appear that the prophet said something he didn’t.
The passage in question is found in Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It is reported in abbreviated form, and Joseph acknowledged as he recorded it that he didn’t understand the meaning or intent of the revelation. Joseph Smith recorded:
“I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” (D&C 130:14-15).
Many of our detractors end the quote at this point, and then they assume that the statement is a prophecy that the Savior would come in the year 1890 or 1891, since the prophet Joseph was born in 1805. However, if the reader will continue further in that passage, he will see that Joseph Smith himself stated:
“I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face” (D & C 130:16).
We only learn what the prophet did prophesy by reading verse 17: “I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” Without a doubt, that prophecy came true. The Lord did not return to the earth for His Second Coming before that time.
Joseph made reference to the incident on at least two other occasions, and indicated that his belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy. And Joseph felt very strongly that he wouldn’t live that long, and that his life would be taken, which, of course, it was.
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DAMON: CC SAID “Nobody is sure if Joseph actually said this particular quote, because there is no other evidence that he did”
What does CCC mean. the fact that it is in the official Mormon book THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, proves he said it. And the Mormon church calls it history. In reality Joseph Smith made many false prophecies. But we will get to some of those after we look at his claim that AS CC SAiD “Joseph’s belief was not that the Lord would come by the time of his 85th birthday, but rather that the Lord would not come before that time, which of course was a correct prophecy.”
Look at Smiths own words in “I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” (D&C 130:14-15).
When Smith said “if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man” he was prophesying a positive, that if Joseph Smith had lived to be 85 he would see the face of the son of man. Meaning that Jesus would return by the time Joe turned 85. This phrase disproves CC’s assertion that Joe was prophesying a negative, that Jesus would NOT return before Joseph was 85.
Lets look a few other False prophecies of Joseph Smith. Here is one to show that Joseph Smith indeed taught that Jesus would come in his generation,,,
“President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, Vol. 2:189)
Here is one that shows The temple would be rebuilt in Missouri in Josephs day,,
“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)
AND MY FAVORITE,,,,,
“I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).”
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FACT #15. Mormons are taught to “shake hands” with a messenger to determine if he is from God or if he is the devil.
The following information is found in Mormon scripture:
“When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. . . . If it were the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.” (Doctrine and Covenants 129:4, 5,
Rather than trusting in “feelings” the Bible commands us to:
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thessalonians 5:21)
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CC: “ This seems kind of amusing, if not somewhat hypocritical, that critics will claim to be experts on what Mormons are taught and believe. I feel safe in saying that I am the world’s authority on what I personally believe and what I have been taught as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The scripture referred to in the Doctrine and Covenants speaks for itself. We also believe the quoted Bible scripture as well. Perhaps this “fact” is brought up, like so many others, for some “shock value”?”
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DAMON: Yes it is amusing and shocking that people would follow a religion that says such things in their inspired writings.
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FACT #16. Brigham Young claimed that those who leave the Mormon Church would turn “wrinkled” and “black.”
The following curse was pronounced by Brigham Young:
“. . .but let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)
There have been tens of thousands of people leave the Mormon Church – Where are the “black and wrinkled” ones?
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CC: “I have tried and tried and have not been able to locate this particular quote by Brigham Young, but I can comment on Brigham Young’s homilies in “Journal of Discourses”. He said a lot of things that are useful and sound, but he also said a few things that would raise eyebrows of a modern reader. Even prophets are products of their times, and Brigham Young was certainly no exception. Naturally, he was not perfect. Only Christ lived a life of perfection.
Brigham Young, like the majority of American Christians of the time, even seemed to believe in racial inequality. That is to be understood. Latter-day Saints do not expect their leaders to be infallible. Moreover, “Journal of Discourses” is not official doctrine of the LDS church. It’s a collection of sermons and homilies from and for a very different time period than today.”
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DAMON: CC said “I have tried and tried and have not been able to locate this particular quote by Brigham Young” the quote showed it’s source (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)
BUT what else does the Mormon church say about those that leave? Mormonism claims to be the one true restored church and it’s leaders have openly bashed Christianity until the last 20 yrs. See what Mormons teach about the Mormon Church, Christianity and by default, those who leave the Mormon church.
So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christians, But what do Mormons say about Christianity?
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FACT #17. Joseph Smith taught the moon was inhabited by people who dressed like Quakers and lived to be about 1000 years old.
In the Mormon publication, The Young Woman’s Journal, pp. 263 & 264, O.B. Huntington gives this interesting information:
“As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He [Smith] described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”
Now that man has walked on the Moon, there can be no doubt that there aren’t any 6 foot tall Quakers roaming its surface.
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CC: “It’s almost laughable isn’t it? I actually think Joseph intended it to be that way.
Critics claim that Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited, and that this is proof he was a false prophet. They’ll also fail to tell you about all of his real and fulfilled prophecies too.
Nevertheless, the source for this particular claim is not Joseph Smith himself; the first mention comes in 1881 in Oliver B. Huntington’s journal, who claimed that he had the information from Philo Dibble. So, we have a late, third-hand account of something Joseph is supposed to have said. Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young apparently both expressed their view that the moon was inhabited, but we allow all men to have their own views/opinions. To say that if they were truly “prophets” they should have known better than the science of the day would also condemn many prophets in the Bible too.
Prominent scientists of Joseph Smith’s day had published their views of the possibility of people living on the moon. I’m not trying to beg the question; only wanting to keep this brief and in my “own words”. But I could provide references if desired. Suffice it to say that LDS doctrine was not provincial, since it provided for “worlds without number” (Moses 1:33) created by Christ. These worlds held those who would require the gospel, since by Christ “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:24).
As always, prophets and believers are products of their time. Biblical authors, for example, clearly accepted a geocentric (earth centered) cosmos, with a flat earth and heavens supported by four pillars. Like the authors of the Bible, modern prophets are generally beholden to their era’s scientific concepts. I personally think that if Joseph Smith actually said something about the appearance of people on the moon, he was doing it in jest; making a wise-crack about the common speculation. He often used humor to make a point. And Brigham Young was known to often use hyperbole.”
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DAMON: CC SAID “I personally think that if Joseph Smith actually said something about the appearance of people on the moon, he was doing it in jest; making a wise-crack about the common speculation. He often used humor to make a point. And Brigham Young was known to often use hyperbole”
I personally find this laughable that a Mormon would go to such lengths to cover for their founder. This is not a joke or hyperbolic poetry or anything, it is a Mormon who knew Joseph and he says “I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth”
That was not Joseph or Bingham and the man was hardly kidding or speaking in hyperbolic or humorous fashion.
CC says that prophets are a product of their times (and their then current scientific knowledge), that is just false. Prophets are a product of God. CC goes on to give this patently false example that even bible prophets are products of their own times when he says “Biblical authors, for example, clearly accepted a geocentric (earth centered) cosmos, with a flat earth and heavens supported by four pillars”
The bible does not teach a flat earth. The Bible teaches that the earth is basically a sphere in shape. Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.
The Biblical term “Four corners” does not infer the flatness of the earth, but it is an idiom that means ALL. When it says the four corners of the earth, it means ALL of the earth. And although the bible does use the analogy of the earth sitting on pillars to denote Gods’ power and sovereignty over it, the bible clearly says. Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
Therefore I conclude that CC’s assertion that “It’s almost laughable isn’t it? I actually think Joseph intended it to be that way” is a joke. NO, to think that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God and would be so influenced by his contemporary science that he would say such a things is very very alarming. But to have a Mormon say their prophet and all prophets are a product of their times and and then say He was joking,,, don’t ya get get it. Joseph Smith was just joking,,,, is downright disturbing.
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MY PERSONAL CONCERNS are for the Mormon people who believe in an organization and prophet that has so many problems and pesky little things they always have to answer for like the 17 facts listed in this by Challangemin.org
We see that CC admits that Mormonism is different and that even Christian terms mean different things to Mormons and Christians. It is only rational to discern from this alone, that Mormonism is not Christian, but it does try to be a redefined Christianity and claims to be Gods restored truth and Church.
But we have seen CC say in his defense of Mormonism that Mormons both believe “EVERY WORD” in the bible and then turn right around and say , “as far as it is translated correctly.”
This is the kind of disregard for logic and the law of non contradiction that Mormons have to make to believe in Mormonism.
SO DO YOU THINK MORMONISM IS CHRISTIAN???
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