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A Mormon Apologist by the name of CC submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons
What follows is,,,
1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org
2. CC’s comments. (You see CC’s original comments for verification on the above post comments section)
3. my (Damon’s) counter comments.
FACT #1 The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are WRONG; ALL their creeds are an ABOMINATION in the sight of God; and ALL their teachers are corrupt.
One of the Mormon Books of Scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, says this about non-LDS churches:
“… they were ALL WRONG; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL CORRUPT;…” (Joseph Smith 2:19).
CC: “The truth about this “fact” is that The LDS Church teaches that all churches have some truth, just not the fullness of the truth. This particular quote refers to the creeds of the churches that we believe are wrong, but not that all the individual Christians who follow them are wrong in their sincere desire to follow Christ the best they know how.”
DAMON: Mormonism is built on the First visions of Joseph Smith. And while there are 3 contradictory accounts of this First vision, they all agree in making the false assertion that Christianity is apostate and an abomination to God. Mormonism has this in common with all church’s (Christian cults) that started from Campbell’s Restoration Movement.
This post shows what Mormon leaders have always said, and still do say about Christianity.
This post will teach those that are nor familiar with the restoration movement and restorationism, that the claim that Christianity had become apostate and needed to be totally restored, is common to ALL CULTS. The Church of Jesus Christ of later day saints is just a part o the heretical Restoration Movement. Mormonism claims to be Christianity RESTORED. Here is a relevant article for that
FACT #2. Mormonism teaches there is no salvation outside the Mormon Church and no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith.
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie makes this statement:
“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670)
The Bible, on the other hand, teaches salvation is in Jesus alone:
“Neither is there salvation in any other [Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
CC: “There are many possible interpretations of what salvation means. I fear we may be using the same word and meaning something entirely different. We do, after all, have different theological vocabularies. In this case you fail to adjust your understanding to how Mormons can understand salvation. Bruce R. McConkie’s book “Mormon Doctrine” isn’t actually official Mormon doctrine; only his personal opinions and interpretations of which he wasn’t always right and sometimes he was verged on being polemical.
However, the Book of Mormon, which is indisputable official LDS doctrine is very clear that there is no salvation save it be through Jesus Christ. “There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8)
However, Latter-day Saints believe in a further goal beyond salvation, which is exaltation. This is most likely what McConkie was referring to when he used the term exaltation.
You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with. The Bible is officially part of our cannon. So Mormons agree that “Neither is there salvation in any other [Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)”
DAMON: I have to agree with some of what CC said here.
CC said “ There are many possible interpretations of what salvation means. I fear we may be using the same word and meaning something entirely different. We do, after all, have different theological vocabularies”.
IT IS TRUE,,, ALL cults redefine Christian terms.
CC said “You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with. The Bible is officially part of our cannon.”
This is just not true, according to the 8th article of the Mormon faith which states “ We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/beliefs/13_articles.htm
As to CC’s assertions that McConkie was referring to exaltation and not salvation, In One sense, exaltation is salvation in Mormonism. But in another sense, Mormonism teaches a universal salvation and “general resurrection”. All men will be saved,,, BUT only good temple Mormon men will be exalted to godhood.
There are more quotes showing that the LDS teach that one must accept Joseph Smith to be saved. Look at Joseph Smiths own words,,, “I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (“History of the Church”, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409, 1884).
Isn’t this an exceedingly prideful statement?
“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph. . . .” “He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling as God does in heaven.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, 289
FACT #3. Mormons are taught to doubt the reliability of the Bible and their leaders have consistently attacked its accuracy.
Joseph Smith claimed:
” … it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.10)
The Bible answers this attack:
“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” (Isaiah 40:8)
CC: “This is actually quite misleading. We believe that the Bible was inerrant as it was originally written by the inspired prophets and apostles, and that it is the word of God, as long as it is translated correctly. We understand the word “translate” more loosely to mean “transmit” or “interpret”. So we actually love the Bible as God’s Word and use it often, but we believe that it must be interpreted correctly. We do believe that there were parts of the gospel which were “plain and precious” that are not now found in the Bible as we know it. More than likely these truths were on completely different books which were lost and therefore didn’t make it into our current cannon. But informed Mormons will tell you that the Bible is very much as close to being accurate in the condition it now is.”
DAMON: CC said “We believe that the Bible was inerrant as it was originally written by the inspired prophets and apostles, and that it is the word of God, as long as it is translated correctly. “
EARLIER CC said “You also need to remember that there is not a single verse of the Bible which Mormons do not agree with”
SO WHICH IS IT??? To seal the fact in the readers minds that Mormons do not believe the Bible, why did Joseph Smith rewrite the bible as this wikipedia articles shows?
The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST), also called the Inspired Version of the Bible (I.V.), is a version of the Bible dictated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. Smith considered this work to be “a branch of his calling” as a prophet. The work is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) with some significant additions, clarifications, and revisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Translation
FACT #4. A basic tenant in Mormonism today is that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan.
Milton R. Hunter explains it like this:
“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer,… this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind.” (The Gospel Through The Ages, p.15)
Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that Lucifer attempted to become the Savior: in fact, Jesus created all the angels including Lucifer, so they can’t be brothers. Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus created “all things,” whether “in heaven,” or “in earth, visible or invisible.”
CC: Again, this is a misleading statement to make. Nor is it a fundamental tenant of Mormon belief. But I admit Mormons have an entirely different framework into which we fit the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve learned a lot from my blogging interactions with people not of our faith, as well as the book “How Wide The Divide?” by Craig Blomberg (an Evangelical scholar) and Stephen Robinson (a Mormon scholar). The biggest thing I realized, and it’s simply huge, is that LDS are unique in their understanding that we are literally God’s offspring, of the same essence or species of God. For Evangelical Christians, that’s only figurative, as they believe we are a different essence entirely than God, who “chose at some point to make creatures distinct from himself–human beings–with the capacity to have a personal relationship with him” (Blomberg).
Stephen Robinson writes: “The real sticking point is not what the LDS think of Christ and his gospel, but rather the different ontological frame or view of the nature of the universe into which Mormons fit the gospel. For Latter-day Saints also believe in the LITERAL fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of humanity. We believe that God and humans are the same species of being and that all men and women were his spiritual offspring in a premortal existence. The main purpose of the gospel of Christ is therefore not so much to get us to heaven as it is to get us HOME.”
So there you have it. We all were a part of the family of God in the premortal existence long before God presented his plan for us to come to earth. This family included Lucifer, before he rebelled and was cast out and became the devil.
DAMON: CC says “But I admit Mormons have an entirely different framework into which we fit the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve learned a lot from my blogging interactions with people not of our faith, as well as the book “How Wide The Divide?” by Craig Blomberg (an Evangelical scholar) and Stephen Robinson (a Mormon scholar). The biggest thing I realized, and it’s simply huge, is that LDS are unique in their understanding that we are literally God’s offspring, of the same essence or species of God. “
AND HOW CAN CC STILL CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN when he acknowledges such a broad difference between Mormonism and mainline Christianity?
CC said “The main purpose of the gospel of Christ is therefore not so much to get us to heaven as it is to get us HOME.”
The Gospel is clearly stated in the bible, 1Co 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures
AND WHY DID JESUS DIE FOR OUR SINS. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Salvation is about being rescued from the wages of our sin. IT IS NOT about exaltation AND salvation is not universal as taught in the Mormons general resurrection.
The bible teaches there is one God.
The book of Mormon teaches there is only one God Mosiah 15:1,5; 2 Nephi 31:21The Book of Mormon Now Zeezrom said: “Is there more than one God?” And he answered, “No.” Alma 11:28-29
Yet CC and many other Mormons dishonor God and show irreverence toward him by trying to become a God themselves.
Satan tried to become his own God and it cost him. What did it cost him. He got kicked out of heaven and had a place celled hell created for him and those that follow him. Satan tempted Adam and Eve by saying “you shall not die, but God knows that your eyes will be opened and you will be as like God”
A study of the occult will show that Genesis 3: 22 is their “secret doctrine”. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Mormonism is occultic through and through. Google “Occult secret doctrine” and you will see that the teaching that men are gods or can become Gods is the biggest teaching in occultism, and look at the new ager’s and their “Christ consciousness” Do you remember Shirley McClain and her prancing on the beach saying I am God, I am God, I am God,,, in her New Age Special on ABC?
What is the difference? It is easy to see that Satan is the source of the teaching that men can become gods.
FACT #5. Mormonism continues to teach that God the Father is a glorified, resurrected Man, and men and women may become Gods and Goddesses.
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie makes this claim:
“God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected Man!” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 643)
Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, taught:
” …you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you,…” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346)
The Lord Himself answers this teaching by pronouncing:
“… I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
CC: This is closely related to that quote by Stephen Robinson. Since we believe we are literally God’s children, we believe we will grow up to become like Him, similar to how children grow up to be like their parents. Obviously we have a different understanding of the nature of God than Trinitarians. But we believe our understanding is biblical. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. We also believe the biblical statements that all three are three and also one. But we reject any post-biblical creeds or councils or statements that attempted to reconcile those two truths.
Therefore, you won’t hear LDS speak much of the Trinity, but of the Godhead. We believe each person of the Godhead is his own being, but that they are one God, or Godhead, as they are one in purpose and intent and glory.
We also hold that it is possible that the Father once had a mortal experience as did the Son, but Jesus was no mere man while he dwelt on earth. He was fully divine and God himself in human form. We’re different in that we are very much mortal, but Christ shows us to way back to the Father. Through Christ’s atonement we believe we can literally be made one again (“at-one-ment”) with the Father as well as the Son. This is the kind of oneness Christ prayed for in his intercessory prayer in John 17.
If we can become “joint heirs” with Them and “one” with Them, than a case can be made that we could also be called gods since we belong to the family of God. But the biggest mistake that critics of the LDS church make is in taking that too far and saying that we believe that we can one day replace God as the supreme ruler of the universe and become objects of worship ourselves. In reality, the goal is to become like them, in attributes and so forth, but we will always reverence and worship the true and eternal God, or Godhead, for eternity.
One helpful clarification about the idea that we can become like God was given by the Church in response to an interview by Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317272,00.html
“We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.”
DAMON: CC said “If we can become “joint heirs” with Them and “one” with Them, than a case can be made that we could also be called gods since we belong to the family of God”
I just got though listening to Joyce Meyers say about the same thing. She deduced that because humans have humans, Gods must have Gods. But Neither Joyce, the other word faith movement teachers, or Mormons fail to realize is that humans do not create, they merely procreate. God creates. But then again Mormonism claims that God is an exalted man so in reality God does not create anything, Then you run into the question of where did man come from. And how can God exist in a infinite regression of causes. Mormonism teaches exaltation. So regardless of the Mormon rhetoric that they only claim and worship one God, they believe in an infinite number of God’s and say men can become Gods.
This post deals with the IMPOSSIBILITY THAT GOD IS AN EXALTED MAN. A logical proof that Mormonism is false!
FACT #6. Mormons consider Polygamy a righteous principle which will be practiced in heaven.
Although there is nothing in the Bible that will support this thinking, current Mormon Scripture has this to say:
“. . .if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery . . . . And if he have TEN VIRGINS given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery.” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61, 62)
Cc: Actually this is quite a debate in Mormonism since we generally don’t like the idea of polygamy, and gave it up in 1890. Yet it is true that we allow that those who were authorized to practice polygamy while on earth will continue to have their families in tact in the hereafter. But nothing is taught about the rest of us “normal” couples having to live polygamy in the hereafter. We won’t be forced to do anything that wouldn’t allow us to have the promised “fullness of joy”. I’d like to note here that monogamy has always been the rule and Polygamy has only been the exception, not only among the 19th century LDS, but even when God commanded Abraham in the Old Testament to have multiple wives.
DAMON: Actually there is quite a split in Mormonism about Polygamy. While the larger portion of the LDS movement no longer practices polygamy, it is a source of contention and many of the 100 + church splits within Mormonism has been over polygamy since it is taught that in order to enter the highest heaven that those who enter must be living in polygamy.
When CC says “Actually this is quite a debate in Mormonism since we generally don’t like the idea of polygamy, and gave it up in 1890”,,,,,, it must be realized that this only happened with the threat of the United States Army invading Utah and claming war against the Mormon Church.
FACT #7. Mormons today believe God the Father is married and past leaders have taught both God the Father and Jesus Christ are polygamists.
Apostle Orson Pratt makes these unbelievable statements:
“. . .the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion, was a Polygamist,. . . the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that he approbated the plurality of Wives under the Christian dispensation,. . .God the Father had a plurality of wives,. . . the Son followed the example of his Father,. . . both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time;. . .” (The Seer, p. 172)
Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that God the Father and Jesus Christ are married or polygamists.
CC: “We don’t talk much about it, but since we believe that we are literally children of a Heavenly Father, that it would follow that He is not a single parent, and therefore that we have a Heavenly Mother. But we know absolutely nothing about her, as nothing as been revealed about her. Likewise, there is no revelation about God or Jesus being polygamists, so any past leaders teaching about that was based solely on personal opinion and speculation and is certainly not representative of the general church membership and is not official Mormon doctrine.
Orson Pratt was known to make some pretty outrageous statements in the 19th century which conflicted even with the views of some of the other church leaders of the time. He was constantly needing to be reigned in, especially with his personal views about the above.”
DAMON: It cannot be denied that Orson Pratt, taught that God the Father and Jesus was polygamist. He was an Apostle of the Mormon church. He was not just a leader. Pratt should have been more that “reigned in” by other Mormon leaders. If the other Mormon leaders did not agree with Pratt, he should have been removed.
CC says “we believe that we are literally children of a Heavenly Father, that it would follow that He is not a single parent, and therefore that we have a Heavenly Mother. But we know absolutely nothing about her, as nothing as been revealed about her”
It is a logical requirement for Mormons to teach about a Mother God, which the bible says nothing about. This is because of their doctrine of exaltation. Men and women can become gods in Mormonism. And their teaching on pre-existence, that we all pre-existed on a planet called KOLAB with our heavenly father Elohim and His wife, our heavenly mother an exalted woman..
But the teaching that there is a female God or a mother God is purely occultic as shown in witchcraft by their Great Mother Goddess, Mother Nature or Mother Gia. The Egyptian Mother Goddess ISIS is a good example. Occult writer Sylvia Browne wrote a whole book entitled “Mother God”
FACT #8. The majority of the activity in the Mormon Temples is work done in behalf of the DEAD.
Joseph Smith offers this explanation:
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our DEAD.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)
Although many Mormons are attempting to save their dead relatives, the Bible indicates:
“None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.” (Psalms 49:7)
CC: “This is a true statement. We believe that baptism is essential to forming a saving covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, as well as signify that our old life is buried and that we are born again as sons and daughters of Christ. Naturally we believe that many of God’s children have died without having had a proper baptism, let alone any baptism. Therefore, temple work is dedicated to doing vicarious ordinances for those who have passed on. In the Spirit World those people will have the chance to accept or reject that baptism, as well as other ordinances, for themselves. We believe this shows both the justice and mercy of God.”
DAMON: The bible says Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
There is no SECOND CHANCE. Most importantly,,, REGULAR BAPTIMS DOE NOT SAVE, much less proxy baptism for the dead. It is common among the cults to teach baptismal regeneration. Here a couple of post from this blog on baptism.
FACT #9. To the Mormon, the ultimate test that Mormonism is true is an “inner feeling.”
Mormons often refer to this feeling as a “burning in the bosom.” They believe their scripture (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8) gives the best test for determining truth. This test reads:
” . . .study it out in your mind; then you must ask me [the Lord] if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall FEEL that it is right.”
The Bible, on the other hand, tells us:
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy 2:15)
CC: “We believe that God answers prayers. (See James 1:5). We believe that he speaks to us through His Spirit, which testifies of truth both in our minds and in our hearts. We believe that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. We have faith, and sometimes that faith can grow into certain knowledge. Similar to how we first have faith, before planting a seed, that it will grow. Then if we nourish the seed and it actually begins to grow, then we know was a good seed. And before long, if you haven’t given up on the seed because of unbelief, you’ll be able to taste the fruit for yourself and know if the fruit is bad or good. I planted that seed of faith long ago, and it has grown into a marvelous tree which bears delicious fruit, therefore, I know that the seed of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is a good seed and bears good fruit. But I also acknowledge that you and your faith can bear good fruit as well. I think the Holy Spirit testifies of all truth according to our individual understanding.”
DAMON: CC said “I know that the seed of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is a good seed and bears good fruit. But I also acknowledge that you and your faith can bear good fruit as well”
CC acknowledges here that HIS GOSEPL and MY GOSPEL are different. Of course his is the true and restored one. But lets examine that and realize what he means. Mormonism and all Restoration movement CULTS say they are the “restored church and gospel”. So they say,,, Christianity became apostate and non existent and the real gospel and church had to be resorted. So on one hand CC wants to claim to be that restored Church and gospel, but then wants to say that Christianity has good fruits. But it cannot be. God only has one Gospel. Either the gospel of Mormonism or the gospel of mainline Christianity is false and one has bad fruits and is not from God. . They cannot both be true.
Christianity says there is one true God and that God became a man to die for the sins of the world. Mormonism says that men are not helpless but have within themselves the ability to become a god. You judge for yourself which one is from God and which one is NOT from God.
Mormons testify that Mormonism is true based on a Burning in the Bosom. CC’s attempt to change the subject does not change the fact that feelings are deceptive.